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[Music]
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thank you
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hello this is WP product talk the place where every week we interview an
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experienced WordPress products owner on strategy tips experiences failures and
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successes of running successful and thriving WordPress product businesses I'm Katie Keith CEO and co-founder at
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Bantu plugins I'm Matt Cromwell co-founder of give WP and senior director of customer
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experience at Stellar WP and today's topic is effective live product demos for your WordPress plugin
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or theme I'm excited to talk with our guest today all about this because we've been
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experimenting a lot with uh product demos and find them to be pretty useful overall and I do think it's a relatively
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new-ish feature that some product owners are using over the last couple years more and more often I think they're
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really useful so I'm excited to talk about it with uh with our guest yep and to talk with us today is special
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guest vikar single so welcome Victorious
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um could you introduce yourself and um tell us a bit about what you do
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hey Matt hey Katie um thanks for having me on the street so my name is and I'm the founder of insta
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WP and we basically make it easier for anybody to spin up WordPress sites so
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that's a one-liner or a liner pitch for myself and the company uh I am in the
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workplace space for last four to five years now I think and insta
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WP is relatively new and we have been trying to make it easier to so the
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bigger goal is to make it easier for anybody to onboard into WordPress so that's the pickle Vision which we have
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nice and we should clarify a little bit um we thought of this subject of product
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demos um and a lot of folks do them in a lot of different ways I've seen recently
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that more and more folks are using uh instant WP specifically for product demos but that's not really the core of
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your product offering it just happens to be a benefit that some folks are using as well can you tell us a little bit
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about the larger product and everything that you offer yeah so the larger product is as I said
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is more about um onboarding people into WordPress so for example we have a quick shortcut
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like wp.new if you type in on the browser you get a WordPress site no questions asked so that's that's the way
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that's Miss we have found a pain point my personal pain point when I started
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this project was there was still not a good way or an easier way to launch a WordPress site quickly in your browser
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um back in like 2021 that's two years ago and it was still a painful process
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you have to install something download a software and then it's just a mess for new people to who are joining to
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Wordpress ecosystem yeah so that's the pain point that we started with and uh
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it became quickly became the de facto standard of like quickly launching test web test WordPress websites uh temporary
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disposable sites and a lot of folks like product companies such as yourself
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started asking can we use uh this to demo all products so of course you can
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then agencies started asking can we use this to actually build client sites of course you can and then and then it just
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means uh rest is history right means we people use the platform in variety of
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different ways um using it for product demos is just one example of it
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that's awesome yeah I love that that's one of my favorite things about having a product business is when you discover
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new use cases for your product you may not even have planned and then it's like a whole new marketing opportunity and
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opens up your Market without needing to create a new product so I really like discovering those things yeah and that's
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because it has it's kind of a like phases of coins it has both
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um it's pros and a lot of con but once you start to discover the potential
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opportunities in a product different use cases then you have to actually the onboarding process and the education
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piece becomes a little bit tough um when you are not focused on a
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particular use case and that's where we are at right now our product is so robust or so vast in in terms of use
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cases we have to find out specific personas of users for example about this
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webinar or this podcast today is focused on product owners per se but same I can
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go on couple of more podcasts such as this and then talk about it different completely different use case and that's
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a little bit challenging at the same time but I just said it's of course very very exciting at the same time yeah
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absolutely I can imagine Freelancers and agencies have lots of use friends to WP and all kinds of things end users might
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use it for different purposes and reasons for sure so yeah yeah well folks uh we do want to welcome anybody who's
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paying attention and watching live right now and if you have questions or comments hope streams aspirations for uh
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live product demos then uh post them into the chat and we will answer them live throughout our conversation
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um but uh first off we want to talk about why we think this subject of live
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product demos for WordPress product owners is so significant and important
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um so uh Katie what's your take um well I say that products
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and shots are up well and good and they're pretty pretty essential but what really brings a WordPress theme or plug-in to life is
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a live demo most companies just provide demos of the front end but people want
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to see what it's like in the back end too how easy is it to use and what's the
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learning curve what features and flexibility is there um so that's all really important and
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historically I would say there hasn't been any really great options for doing that in WordPress yeah of course it's
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quite tricky because it depends on the product because some products are really front end heavy and so the user's happy
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just seeing what it looks like on the front end whereas others back end heavy or both so they do need to see the back
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end so there isn't a one-size-fits-all approach so I would want to help product owner to think about what's the best
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needs and that would help their product yep absolutely yeah
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yeah I totally agree on that means a lot of product owners come to me that do I
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need your product but first I have to tell them that you may or may not need
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depending upon your use case as JD rightly pointed out if the product has a
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very heavy front-end use case then for example a theme right which doesn't
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do much other than which in in the term stuff but there is not a lot of admin settings for it and the user is fairly
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Satisfied by just looking at the front end of it but almost more than 50 of
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cases where users will have to play around with the settings and see their results
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themselves right um a lot of Stellar products are like that and I think a lot of e-commerce
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plugins which I'm sure Bantu uh is doing are like that but as I said not 100 of
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the product meet that yeah yeah absolutely I I really like talking
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about this like I had mentioned in the intro um the whole idea of doing live uh Demos
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in WordPress products I feel like is relatively new um not brand new like it's definitely
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been a thing for a few years now but yeah but previously folks were like well
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if you want to try my product like I've got a free plugin just install it on your WordPress site and try it out uh
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like that was the mentality but the truth is so many products today in order for them to really shine you
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kind of really have to dial them in correctly so that folks will see the use and the power of it you might even need
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to do some sort of like admin like walkthrough demo as well uh just to say
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like I know that here's a settings panel but like did you know if you go over to the post edit screen you'll see X Y and
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Z that's really cool too and if you have a guided tour of the admin that would be
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really helpful for some folks you can do that with a system like insta WP where you create a template that has a
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pre-installed uh thing in it and then you can go through all those things and
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give people the the best experience of your product after it's already been configured because a lot of times that
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configuration phase is just kind of a chore and that you don't get people to
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success you don't get them to the aha moment of the plug-in uh when you click
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install and activate um so I I think being able to put your best foot forward with these product
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demos is is why I think it's significant and important personally yep uh Miss people as you said people
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have been setting up demos using different plugins like a multi-site kind
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of infrastructure or maybe a shared admin demo where they share the same
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admin demo with multiple people right and all of these approaches and or you
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can just spin up something of your own which is not a new concept as you said but the end of the day I think the most
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important factor which you test upon is getting your potential customer to success is means first of all is setting
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it's setting the setting up a product demo is itself is an art a lot of companies have figured it out
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um which gravity have figured it out already I I give that
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peace as an education to my so whoever joins our uh community in a way that you
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do you should even though you are a customer but I want you to be successful and the way you become successful is to
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make your end users know about your products successfully yeah and to do that the product demo instance itself
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needs to be set up very very tight means uh all the all the possible use cases
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needs to be covered and you have to guide them through the admin UI or whatever right it can be anything and I
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mean as I say best is to get inspired from others who have done it best right so and gravity is one of them uh I think
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learned as has set up very well as well so yeah yeah those are excellent examples I want to highlight a couple
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folks here in the wings uh we're always live and um uh we have folks who are
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chiming in um Zach Katz is one of our co-hosts he's here watching with us as well good to see you Zach uh Evan
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batdorf good to see you thanks for being here saying hi satyam is using a slack
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Emoji I'd love to have a pink waving hand emoji in our comments here but
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thank you all for being here um yeah so next one up is we want to talk a little bit about our personal
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experiences with this subject in particular I think I'll try to kick it
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off and talk about some of the things we've been doing uh over the years we have tried to introduce folks to the
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give WP plugin in so many different ways um I'll use give WP as the primary example
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um and at first we really did try to really really encourage people to
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install the free plug-in that was like go install the free plugin try it out that's the best way to get to know
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things and then we found out people were trying it out on their live environment and sometimes breaking things and it
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gets like a little bit hairy when um uh when you're just encouraging folks to just install a plug-in just to see if
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they like it or not and then we started doing a lot more videos I do think a lot of this kind of
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question depends a lot on your audience and what they like what they want I'm
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always one who's like don't give me a video like I would love to have a nice article that I can skim please with
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screenshots that would be great um so we leaned heavily on tutorials and documentation and screenshots and video
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but even then it's not particularly Hands-On um then we launched a a live demo site a
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subsite demo and it's still there I believe demo.givewp.com and there we really tried to put focus on all of the
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different ways that you might want to learn about the free plugin which is screenshots and videos and text but also
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we were like give it a test drive um and we have a button uh form uh that
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they fill out and it launches and it's the wp instance um and I helped kind of build out a an
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admin demo area of uh like when they when they when it spins up and they log in for the first time there's a modal
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that's like welcome to the give admin area um and here you can go make a post or
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you can check out some settings or you can go see your donors and give them kind of like a Choose Your Own Adventure
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kind of Route um I felt like that was a good way to go about it um what I was surprised by uh
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is that we also gave the option for folks to sign sign up for a a webinar
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group demo as well and I really expected that the live demo would just be like 90
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of people would just want to be doing the live demo let me get my hands on it right away
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um I think it's Unique to our audience but it was more like 40 percent um sometimes even less maybe 30 percent
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of folks were wanting to get their hands on the plug-in uh the other ones were a
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mix of wanting to do the webinar the group webinar uh or just looking at videos or opting into white paper stuff
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like there was because there were several different options um but only 25 30 percent maybe at the
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most sometimes 40 percent wanted to get their hands dirty on a live demo so that was really interesting to me in
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particular um yeah that's where I'm coming from um personally
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um but I do like the way that we've seen some of that uh launch on other Stellar Brands like learndash in particular like
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the events calendar in particular the events calendar really takes a few things to really get it to set up and
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like actually have a physical calendar that has events on it for example being able to preload that right out of the
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box and be like oh look at all these great events you've got um it's a lot easier to just dump them into an area
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like that that has stuff in advance um yeah Katie what about you what are
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your experiences to date with uh live demos so we've always just done front-end
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demos of all of our plugins um except for a couple where we've not had any demo at all for example we have
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one plugin which um woocommerce multiple email recipients which just adds extra email fills to like the checkouts and
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things so we didn't feel that justified a demo size it's pretty obvious whilst it does whereas all our other plugins
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we've just done a front-end demo plus screenshots on the sales page but that's
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always created dilemmas because it's fine for the front end plugins like say
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a document library or something like that where you can see it in the front end and yeah people might want to see
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what the admin options are but at least they can visualize the plugin in the front end but we have quite a lot of
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plugins which allow you to restrict access to content on a WordPress site so that might be sort of blog categories
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woocommerce product categories we have a wholesale plugin we have a woocommerce private store plugin that high your
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whole shop so how do you show that on a front-end demo and the way we've done
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that is by having things like a password on the demo so it's like here this is
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your private store login page enter username password to unlock it but
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that's not super user friendly because it requires the user to actually read the text on the demo and nobody does
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that of course so I've always felt a bit uncomfortable about the way we have
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demoed some of our products so what we're doing now is a project to
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kind of experiment with into WP having met vikas in um Athens at Work Camp
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Europe and we've taken us a while to get around to it but this is great timing for me actually because this week my
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husband and co-founder Andy has been spending time setting up one of our plugins within WP and it's looking
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really great but there are a lot of decisions to make as you said earlier to really showcase your product in the best
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possible way so there are the dilemmas like what page do you start them on and
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I'd love any advice about that which actually fits in with Zach's question exactly so yeah maybe we should move on
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to that now so where do you start them yeah how do you recommend onboarding users to your product when setting up
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product demos so this is a question that you have yourself Katie is what you're saying yeah so if for anybody who
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doesn't know you can use into WP to pre-populate a demo site which the user
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can then edit as they choose and then it disappears at whatever period you've specified I think we're going to go with
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four hours or something like that um and but the thing we've been debating
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this week is where should we start people should we open the setup wizard even though we've already set it up on
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the front end should we open a front-end page and expect them to find their way to the admin through the WordPress
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toolbar at the top should we open a settings page in the admin that if it's a custom post type should you open the
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list of custom posts like documents or whatever so where would you start people
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to really have a successful onboarding experience so they know what to do
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yep I guess it's one of those decisions where you have to do a b testing right
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which works best for your users I generally recommend uh figuring out the
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major pain point of your customers what is the first question they ask when they see that when they see your plugin for
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example I was actually browsing document Library Pro the other day because there was a use case where I wanted to build a
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video library on Insta WP to show like like an academy or a documentation uh
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using a series of videos um and then while I was browsing it the first question which came to my mind can
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I style this page according to my needs is can I can I change the layout uh can
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I use bigger thumbnails or whatever that question may be and then over a period
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of like running your business you know those top three questions so I I would
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suggest you start from there right if a plugin is complex and you're onboarding solves that I will say leave the
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onboarding on right so start we will basically push people to the onboarding interface and that onboarding should
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take care of the majority of the questions if if you think that it's better for the users to already onboard
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it with a couple of examples pre-built pre-populated uh and then you showcase
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so I'll take example of gravity so they create about 10 different forms for
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different use cases and for each use case they have built a form but they
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also build an a page inside the WordPress site itself which shows which
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itself becomes a landing page so the WordPress site itself becomes a landing page and they read the right users to
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the home page of the WordPress site but logged in the user is auto logged in
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because instead WP can give you the auto login feature so in a way what you're
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doing like two things at the same time you are letting people know that this is what the product is all about so this is
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form one this is form two this is form three and then at the same time you just click on a form and then edit it right
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so so you are essentially I think what comes out of from this story is
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that you show what all things are possible with your product and then you allow people to click on a button and
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then experience themselves what what it is all about so it's it's more about
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like giving them the breadth of your product and then they themselves should go deep into the product that will be
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their browsing experience so I think that's the best way to do it nice I like
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that a lot yeah I mentioned that earlier that um what one thing we did was give them
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options of where they wanted to go like as soon as you log in we popped up a modal and said welcome this is a tour or
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a demo and here's where you might like to go if they did choose to like go see
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the donors it was kind of like well you go see the donors and then well there they are
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and there's not a lot to do there um and and then there wasn't necessarily much more guidance after that so there's
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all definitely more that we could have done to to continue the guided tour and things like that but I love that idea of
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using the front end of the site Which is far more customizable than the admin area the idea you can build literally
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anything on the Block editor you don't even need to use a page editor for that and it means you literally you can build
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like a one-pager landing page so that your demo site itself becomes a marketing side exactly it's not just a
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demo site it's a marketing plus demo site absolutely yeah that's interesting
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because if we're Landing people on the front end and they're seeing the product is that an argument to get rid of the
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existing front-end demos because we were thinking of giving users a choice do you want to just demo you know the site
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that's set up or do you want to create your own editable version of it to play around with but if we're taking them
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straight to the front end which looks like our existing demo size could we get rid of our existing sites or do you
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think they have different purposes I think that's that serves different purposes the front-end demo without much
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of a setup is a quick way to browse around but you can have like a button somewhere or multiple places that try
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spin this up for my for me or try this is a in a live environment uh and that
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takes them to the exact same page where they want to go and in HWP you can actually set up their starting page
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where you want them to land I think that's that's the experience but as we
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discussed earlier it depends upon plug-in to plugin in some cases you don't even need to show the front-end
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demo you can just put them directly into the live demo as you said that's an interesting observation yes
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absolutely I want to throw out just one kind of tangent a little bit uh the one
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of the biggest uses that we have for insta WP in particular is we use it a ton for technical support purposes
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um and I think it's also so useful and valuable for that as well we we just are
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spinning up sites all the time to try to replicate issues and if we do replicate it we hand it over to the developers to
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be like here this is where you can replicate that problem uh it ends up being super useful in those cases as
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well also in for the customers themselves when they're like oh this is not working that is not working we could
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send them the login link to that site and be like go and check if it's working over here
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which ends up being super useful for them as well but lots of users for
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instance lots of use cases as we as we stated earlier and it's one of the best use case we have found product companies
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using it is custom support but by copying their lifestyle so we have a
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plugin which can be installed on a customer site I guess did you tweet about it yeah at
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least two days ago I didn't know that into WP could be used for an instant way
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of cloning a site because customers hate being told to set up a staging site not
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all hosts make that easy so I was like oh that could be a real benefit for support yeah even though there is a
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facility inside the hosting panel not a lot of customers are familiar with it and it's creating an option within the
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dashboard and also like a partial staging so they skip the media folder and things like that so that becomes a
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real real really useful tool yeah and it's talking about different use cases sometimes even I wonder okay can we do
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this as well and that becomes like a and this and that the product team says yes
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you have forgotten that we can do this
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it's actually a good topic that I feel like we've touched on in different episodes about just how like what Katie
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highlighted that it's great when you land on a use case that you didn't know that you had originally but at the same
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time like you said it's like it's great but now you're responsible for that use case like as soon as you go down that
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path now you actually have to like cater to to those customers and their wants and needs I remember one of my favorite
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stories was from Pippin Williamson from Easy Digital downloads he said I like to
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listen to customers as much as possible but they keep asking for a shipping add-on for Easy Digital downloads and
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it's never going to happen like yeah one of those one of those lines you
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have to draw at some point it's like this is our purpose and that's not our purpose so okay have you been having
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that struggle at all vikas in terms of like you can expand and expand and you can become a whole entire hosting manage
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WordPress hosting platform if you wanted at this stage yeah are you talking about those types of things internally yeah
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so that that has been one of the issues is saying no to use cases because we get
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so many because of the nature of the product we wanted to become a platform
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and becoming a platform is not an easy thing when we started requirements I
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have said in a couple of interviews that I want to become AWS for WordPress it's just a vague term so so much a wake time
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but right now what we have found our purpose is to limit ourselves in solving
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those major use cases which can drive revenue for other company which is like the honest truth and also to solve
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majority of the customers problem which nobody else is solving in a proper way yeah so that is I think that's where you
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have to put your foot down definitely absolutely um I did want to touch on a little bit
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of different types of product demos because insta WP is a great option but
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like I mentioned a little bit earlier there are lots of different mediums you could use I don't want everyone here to
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think that only a live product demo is is the way to go here um like I mentioned I I do think that
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videos can be really instructive and really informative especially if you're using like uh on YouTube at least you
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can use the chapters tool to allow folks to be able to skip to different parts of a really long video in order to see what
28:18
they want to see I think those are useful I've seen a lot of video platforms now that are offering
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interactive elements within the video that that you can actually ask people
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questions in the video and say what would you like to see next and you give them options and then they could skip to
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those things by clicking on the video um there's a particular term for that I forget what it's called
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um but um those are I think are super useful as well we've had a lot of
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success personally also with these group webinars or one-on-one webinars even where where we're basically doing their
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their basically pre-sales uh uh Zoom calls with our customers and I do think
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that's a little bit unique in the WordPress space overall um but we do find
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um that they've been valuable for us we do as a whole for for give WP in
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particular we have like an average job size of about 240 dollars uh uh per customer uh which in the end does
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justify um a little bit more time on the pre-sales side of things
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um so there are lots of different options um Katie have you considered other types of um uh demoing for your customers in
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any way one of the challenges for me is having many different products is that you'd
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need we've got like 23 products so that would be a lot of webinars so I love the
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idea but I suppose we could do that for our most popular products and that might
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justify it but our average order value is exactly half what you just said ours
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is about 120 rather than 200 plus so we but then if it's a group webinar then
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that's less time per user so it might be worth it uh for the bigger products
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I saw something really cool um a few months ago on a SAS website where they'd kind of embedded a sort of
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their product in in an editable way into the page into their home page so I can't
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remember what it was but you could actually click on it and change stuff and it was within the sales page so I
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thought that was a really instant way of getting the demo but for me it's always a dilemma as to what to prioritize so
30:35
you've got the top of your sales page and you've got your pricing and buy type
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buttons and you've got maybe a front-end demo and a back-end demo and do you put
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a video there and it's like how you have to kind of offer or a webinar so how do
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you choose which one is the most important um given that users do want different
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things absolutely yeah yeah nice
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Coco well we are uh getting into our last segment at this stage and um it's
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honestly one of my favorites um I love being able to talk about just the best advice that we have for any uh WordPress
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product owner who's trying to get into this for the very first time um I think we can do it in a couple different ways like sometimes I say
31:21
let's give an elevator pitch like what's your like you're passing somebody in the hallway track at Work Camp they're like
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hey how do I get started with instant WP you've got like two seconds while they're walking away what's your pitch there but let's say it's more of like a
31:34
quick little chat together we got some time in space so what's our best advice for folks who want to do live product
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demos um and are just getting started with it uh vikas do you want to start us off
31:47
um okay um I think this I think what we have discussed before I can go back to it a
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little bit um is find a pain point which your
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customers are experiencing uh when they are trying to understand that what your
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product does right if the landing page is not enough if the screenshots are not
32:11
enough if the videos are not enough uh if they're pre-recorded webinars are not
32:16
enough I guess uh with having a admin demo is goes a long long way at
32:24
the admin demo does not only become like a way to demo the product it becomes
32:29
like a lead magnet actually at that point because you can collect email addresses from your users if you want to
32:35
with their permission and then send them a list of emails over the next period of
32:41
let's say 7 to 14 days for them to nurture and then let them know about more about your product and uh that that
32:49
way you you have to actually see that at the end of the day the goal
32:55
is for you to talk about your product uh as much as the user wants to listen in
33:01
the way that they understand right uh I think that's the that's the goal you you
33:06
want to accomplish and then the honest truth is that you want to convert the user to a paid customer
33:13
um which it doesn't matter however which way you look at it and these are all the
33:19
different ways which we are discussing is like different different kind of mechanisms to do that so getting that
33:26
lead leads into your database and they started executing it and then sending a mail again on maybe a Black Friday and
33:33
then have a clear unsubscribe button right if that is is something of a this
33:39
that is always a best uh kind of uh practice to do it so and uh webinars
33:49
are also great lead magnet so if somebody wants a personal demo so it can be pre-recorded or a live demo but if
33:55
the ticket size is good I wish we have 240 dollars for the ticket size but if
34:01
you have that then I I guess person demos are one of the best way to convert somebody uh which in insta WP uh even
34:10
though we make it so easy to launch a WordPress site communicating the benefits uh as we have meant we have
34:16
discussed earlier becomes a pain point for us so I generally hop on to live
34:22
demos and then do personally and I have one more person uh to do that and those
34:27
really work well for us um and then the SAS platform we look at
34:34
more like an LTV value rather than the first ticket size value so if your LTV
34:39
is high enough and it justifies a personal demo then why not yeah absolutely no that's really good stuff
34:46
that's great because Katie what's your take um maybe a little bit
34:51
um preaching to yourself a little bit as you're jumping into it right now but what's your best advice
34:56
my best advice based on what I'm doing now is to put yourself in the customers
35:02
shoes and think about their experience of discovering your product for the first time on the in the context not
35:09
necessarily of installing it on their own website but viewing a demo site that you've already set up so I've learned a
35:17
lot about our document Library plugin just by viewing the into WC demo and
35:22
thinking about what pages to include and where to direct people and things and
35:27
I'm thinking about it like well if what if they start on this page how will they know to go to this page or this other
35:34
place even exists with different settings and then I started thinking well maybe that's an issue in the
35:39
plug-in more generally for all our users and not just in the demo so yeah put
35:45
yourself in their shoes and really think about that Journey because that's what's ultimately going to convert them into a
35:52
paying customer so it's actually funny when you talk about that a lot of like in developers I speak to they say that
35:59
if I expose my admin panel nobody will buy my plugin yeah
36:07
so I I mean this of course there are some complex plugins which are difficult
36:13
to set up but they are just exceptions but in in general if people are finding it difficult to use the admin panel to
36:19
set up something in your plugin then there is like a larger problem yeah uh inside and and I think I think solving
36:27
that itself will help the plugin in the long term absolutely that's a really good one uh me personally I'm going to
36:34
be a little bit uh a little bit different take um I think if you're just getting started the most important thing you can
36:41
do is talk with your customers as much as possible um and so I wouldn't start with a live
36:48
demo that folks can just jump into and jump out of without any interaction
36:54
um I really would recommend doing the weekly uh uh like Zoom webinar type of
37:00
thing uh get people on a call um get them asking questions especially
37:05
if you're a founder or co-founder and you're like I'm building this myself this is my business I'm excited about it
37:12
I'm passionate about it people love meeting you and they feel like they're insiders getting on the beginning of a
37:18
of a new career and things like that they'll give you feedback for years things like that it is it does take time
37:26
but I think it's kind of like it's a killing several birds with one stone uh
37:32
you you basically I don't love that phrase but like you get to get a lot of things done at once you get a lot of
37:38
customer Insight you start to build loyalty for your product you get a lot of feedback on the spots of your product
37:45
that aren't cool that the customers are like that's weird why would you do that um and you get to actually answer all
37:51
their questions right in one call and hopefully turn them into great customers
37:56
um so I'm not gonna Zach is commented he's being I'm not what and now I have
38:02
to show it I don't know I don't kill birds I don't um
38:08
um so yeah that that's my take uh talk to your customers as much as possible be
38:14
the live demo um that you want them to see um and uh I think that'll go that'll pay
38:19
dividends in the long run one more advice which uh is on which we
38:25
have not talked about so far is in the context of live demos it may be like
38:31
admin demos or not that doesn't really matter but if you have if you are comfortable with software like Microsoft
38:37
Clarity or hot jar I think that is also a very good way to understand your customers without even talking to them
38:44
because you are not installing that software in a sensitive part of uh their
38:49
website you're actually installing in a demo environment which is controlled so you can see their Mouse movements and
38:55
you can actually see the recordings how they are using it and I suggest some sometimes to install that on the insta
39:01
WP demo sites and then you can actually log into your customers demo sites the
39:06
potential users who are using the demo sites from the admin panel from from the Instagram to be dashboard and you can
39:12
see how they are actually going through the demo to make your product better and
39:18
better over time uh but I totally agree with you Matt means if you're just starting out I think you just you should
39:25
keep it simple just talk to your customers understand how they are using the product and then figure out the
39:30
journeys which other other users will also get will be will basically those
39:36
the outcome of those those discussions should translate into the product in a
39:41
way that it becomes more useful to other other people as well yeah absolutely yeah I really like that it touches on
39:48
something you referred to briefly earlier vikas which was a b testing and
39:53
I forgot to follow up but I was thinking how do you a B test on an interwp demo
40:00
so is that the way to do it then you install something like hot jar to track what your users are doing
40:06
yeah so you can install hotjar inside the demo sites and those will be
40:11
recorded in your hot jar account or Clarity account and you can just view those at a later point of time that
40:17
becomes like a database of different people experiencing your product and I
40:23
think that's a gold mine when once we do that for our SAS application or when we
40:29
want to understand customer behavior and then with that gives us like a collective input of a lot of customers
40:36
if they are not clicking a button which is which you thought they are going to click and they never click it so that's
40:44
that's an input for you right it means you have just just change that button color which I think Katie you have been
40:50
sharing a lot of insights on Twitter recently and I've been following that so it means even though even just sharing
40:56
even just changing their links text goes a long way right when you're a b testing
41:02
something yeah yeah I love that because means for them you need to go with your kind of
41:08
best guess as to where to start the user but actually you can really get an evidence-based way to make a final
41:15
decision on that over time yeah that's awesome Yep if only we still
41:21
have Google optimized though man that was so great they also just announced again today Sunset and Google podcasts
41:28
too so fortunately we're already on Google Music podcasts over here so we're
41:34
all set because thank you so much for being here I really appreciate your insights
41:40
um it's been really a great conversation overall yeah same here thanks for having me Matt
41:45
and Katie this was wonderful uh I get to speak about my product and also uh means
41:51
talk about a lot of a pain Point area with a lot of product owners actually face and I have been a plug-in and theme
41:59
uh shop we we have a plugin in theme shop in the past so I do understand how
42:04
difficult it is to run that shop and how difficult it is to like convey your
42:10
value prop yeah absolutely well thanks so much everybody it's been
42:15
great next week we actually are going to have a a good friend and and colleague of mine Ben rittner uh co-founder of uh
42:23
our founder of cadence WP um and uh we're excited to talk with him about product Innovation uh Ben has been
42:31
innovating in the WordPress space for years and years internally at Stellar we're always leaning on him for new
42:36
ideas uh the whole way in which we're rolling out Cadence AI it's all really
42:41
geared around Ben's uh intuition uh for products um so I'm excited to bring him
42:47
here and talk about how can we all be more and more Innovative in our approach to products so
42:53
with that said have a good week everybody we'll see you next time