ep79 - The Power of Personal Branding

[00:00:00] Matt Cromwell: Hey, everyone. This is WP Product Talk. Thanks so much for being here. And, uh, have you ever heard that phrase that corporations are people? Um, that's an interesting type of way to think about stuff. Um, but I know that one thing about that is very true that founders are people. People who create businesses are people.

[00:00:54] Matt Cromwell: And oftentimes, the person behind the brand is the person behind the brand. is a big part of, uh, the success of that brand. So who you are and what you stand for, and you're what we call personal brand really, really matters. And that's what we're going to talk about today. This is WP Product Talk, a place where every week we bring you insights, product marketing, business management and growth, customer experience, product development, and more.

[00:01:24] Matt Cromwell: It's your go to podcast for WordPress product owners, by WordPress product owners. And now, enjoy the show.

[00:01:40] Matt Cromwell: Hey Katie, welcome.

[00:01:41] Katie Keith: Hey, yeah, another new series of WP Product Talk.

[00:01:46] Matt Cromwell: I know, we're back. We've been away for quite a while and it feels weird. Kind of because it also feels a little bit like everything has changed. Like everything in between times. I mean, to just speak to the elephant in the room, yes, we're still going to keep doing WP Product Talk.

[00:02:02] Matt Cromwell: We'll just try not to call it like Manage Hosted WordPress Product Talk or something like that.

[00:02:08] Katie Keith: Yeah. WP is not trademarked.

[00:02:10] Matt Cromwell: Yeah, exactly. So, um, what's your take? Are you excited to talk about the subject today?

[00:02:17] Katie Keith: Yeah, I think it's a really good topic and, um, and we've got an amazing guest to talk about it, of course, who is an expert in this particular area.

[00:02:25] Matt Cromwell: Exactly. I, when this, uh, subject came up, I said, you know, the only person who I would trust to talk about this with authority is my friend, Chris Lemma. And here he is. Chris, thanks so much for being here, man. It is great to join you guys. So glad for you to be here. Can you give everybody a little bit of a rundown of who you are, what you do, and, uh, why you're here to talk about this subject?

[00:02:53] Chris Lema: Uh, well, I'm here to talk about this subject because you invited me, so that's why I'm here. Um, as for who I am, uh, A long time ago, uh, I used to be important in WordPress. I'm not anymore, but I still know people that are old like Matt. So Matt still invites me on to things and that's awesome. Uh, in the, in the old days of, of, uh, I don't know, I started using WordPress in 05.

[00:03:19] Chris Lema: I started getting involved in the community in, uh, maybe 2010, 2011. Uh, from 2010, Maybe 2011. I was involved in the community up until about, uh, two and a half, almost three years ago. Um, and heavily involved in advising companies, coaching companies, particularly product companies, um, building a product for the space.

[00:03:44] Chris Lema: I, I ran the, uh, managed WordPress hosting at Liquid Web and created the Manage WooCommerce hosting there. Um, and, uh, yeah, have spent a lot of time working in the WordPress space, uh, left just a couple of years ago to start another company. And, uh, and that's what I'm doing today over at motivationcode.

[00:04:06] Chris Lema: com. My other passion is leadership. And so leading people and managing people is kind of my jam. And so we created an assessment there. That's a lot of fun. But, uh, I love our websites are on WordPress. We host with, you know, with WordPress and do things with WordPress. We have, I still have a ton of my friends from the WordPress community.

[00:04:24] Chris Lema: Uh, and so it is fantastic to be with you this morning.

[00:04:28] Matt Cromwell: Awesome. Yeah. Um, you also have this amazing conference called Cabo Press as well. Tell the world a little bit about that.

[00:04:37] Chris Lema: We, we started it as a WordPress thing, right? Because I was coaching, but I could only coach 10, maybe people a year. And, uh, and I wanted greater impact.

[00:04:46] Chris Lema: So we created a conference, uh, in my favorite place in Cabo San Lucas. And it was, it's not a technical conference. It's just business. So we talk about pricing or hiring or outsourcing or, uh, social media or go to market and all that kind of stuff. And so we started it, uh, this was our 10th year, uh, doing it and, um, And it was, in the first years, it was all WordPress people.

[00:05:12] Chris Lema: Today it's about a third WordPress and, uh, two thirds that are agencies that do some stuff with WordPress and some stuff outside and some SaaS companies that maybe some of the founders came out of WordPress and then, and then went on to do, uh, SaaS. So it is, it is a little more, uh, spread out. It's not all WordPress these days.

[00:05:30] Chris Lema: Um, But it is a fantastic conference that will ruin every other conference for you. Five star resort, unlimited food and drinks, uh, only sessions from 9 to 12 so that you're not exhausted by the end of a day. And all the sessions are discussions rather than lectures and they're held in a pool. And once you hang out in a pool, uh, it's really hard to go back to a ballroom and rows of chairs.

[00:05:58] Chris Lema: So,

[00:05:59] Matt Cromwell: yeah. Nice. That's awesome for nothing but really positive stuff about it. I bring that up just because when I think about, um, Chris Lemma and Chris Lemma's personal brand, it's hard to separate that from Cabo Press, honestly. But let's jump into it. Um, the first thing we always try to like, Lay out here for everyone is like, what's the big deal about personal brands?

[00:06:22] Matt Cromwell: Why should product owners care about personal brands at all? I try to lead a little bit by saying like, you're, who you are, um, matters to the business that you run. People really pay close attention to that. I think we see that being played out a lot in public at the moment, actually, uh, in a lot of ways.

[00:06:40] Matt Cromwell: Um, and, uh, I just would love to hear a little bit from, from both of you. What's your take on why is, So important for product owners. Katie, do you want to jump in first?

[00:06:50] Katie Keith: Yeah, sure. So this is something that wasn't really on my radar for a very long time, maybe two years ago. Um, I, I'm very much, uh, outcome focused in my work.

[00:07:03] Katie Keith: I want to be able to measure the impact of product. things and know what works. And so, uh, woolly things like personal brand for a long time, I thought I would rather be spending that time on real direct marketing of my products. Um, and we'll get into my story in a bit more detail later and where the transition happened and so on.

[00:07:24] Katie Keith: But since then I've learned that there are lots of benefits that If people have a faith to a company that they do respect that company more, they're more likely to buy from you. And also there's lots of other peripheral benefits that come from it, which I didn't realize. So it's more important than you might think.

[00:07:47] Matt Cromwell: Absolutely. Yeah. Chris, what do you tell folks like at ColorPress or anytime you're talking with product shops, what do you tell them that's so important about this subject? So I tell them the story

[00:07:56] Chris Lema: of GoDaddy. Right. GoDaddy was already a, you know, billion dollar business. They were huge. Um, and their seat and they, and you remember them, uh, if you go back long enough, right, they had all these, uh, Superbowl commercials.

[00:08:09] Chris Lema: People didn't know what GoDaddy was or meant. And, and they were, you know, Paying ridiculous amounts of money and sending millions of people, you know, in terms of traffic to their website, uh, in femto seconds. I mean, it was just like a massive rush of people to buy domain names, uh, a long time ago. And, and they were huge and their CEO went on a hunt, uh, in Africa, killed an elephant or something and took pictures holding up the elephant head, whatever.

[00:08:38] Chris Lema: And, um, immediately there was a backlash. Right. There was a huge backlash. They're like, what kind of person does this? And that was a, you know, beautiful animal. And you went into their area and you just kill them for sport. And so it was huge. Well, um, you go, you know, a couple of years later, They get rid of that CEO and they put in a new CEO and then they bring in a new executive team.

[00:09:03] Chris Lema: And these guys are from eBay and PayPal. I mean a completely different executive team. And then they start trying to recraft GoDaddy, right? And so there was this, there was this stage right in 16, 17, 2017 16 and 17 where they're re rebuilding the whole brand. And so you go forward to like 2018 or 19. Two years after they've done this and they ask people who are quitting, what's the reason why you're quitting GoDaddy, right?

[00:09:31] Chris Lema: For hosting, domain, whatever. And what they're expecting, right? I, I knew the GM of, of hosting over there. And, uh, and my buddy was like, you're not going to believe it. I'm like, is it your, is it your poor support? Is it your, you know, like, I'm just thinking all these technical reasons because their product was still a work in progress.

[00:09:51] Chris Lema: Um, and he's like, no, it's that our CEO killed an elephant. And like, it's two years later, it's a different CEO, right? And now they're on their, you know, the third CEO. And you're like, the power of personal brand. We could talk about all the positive sides, create opportunities, establish value, increase reach, anchor trust, blah, blah, blah, blah.

[00:10:12] Chris Lema: But the point isn't how you can build and grow it. It's how you can destroy millions of dollars of value, right? Eliminate Massive value simply because you're not paying attention to it. Simply because you think this is my personal life. You know how those people go on Twitter and they're like, uh, opinions are my own.

[00:10:35] Chris Lema: You can just delete that, right? Because it doesn't matter. The moment you publish it, that's your opinion. That's your company's opinion. That's your industry's opinion. You can't say, I can say whatever I want and it doesn't impact my company. That's not how it works. Right. And so personal brand is really important.

[00:10:53] Chris Lema: Just if only to protect the brand equity that you're trying to build when you're building a company.

[00:11:01] Matt Cromwell: Absolutely. I love that example because, and I think many of the folks who are here today probably are thinking about the impact the personal brand will have on their, let's say, relatively small size business.

[00:11:13] Matt Cromwell: Right. Um, and you're highlighting how, oh my gosh, no, this goes all the way to the top. Of course, we all know, like, uh, Bezos and, and, uh, and all the folk, big folks who like their, their personas, um, like Jeff Bezos, his persona is. Amazon. Like, people cannot separate Amazon from him in so many ways. Um, and, uh, it matters all the way up to that level for sure.

[00:11:36] Matt Cromwell: That's a great example. Appreciate that. I mean, me personally, I think about it a lot, um, because I put myself out there a lot, and I have done that for a really long time. Um, and I, I do think that, um, people's ability to trust me, um, extends to their ability to trust the products that I, that I offer. Um, and so I really try hard to always be somebody who stands, uh, behind his word at all times, um, in order that when they get into GiveWP, and now when they get into any of the various Stellar products that I give, associate my name with, um, that they feel like they, they're, they're coming to the right place.

[00:12:16] Matt Cromwell: Um, am I successful at that? Does it matter? Does it drive an impact? I hope so. I think it does. I keep trying to make sure that that's the, the, that it's the truth. It's gotten harder now that I'm, um, involved with a lot of brands. Um, I, uh, you know, just recently, I'm doing a lot with LearnDash and, um, LearnDash has some growing pains to go through right now.

[00:12:38] Matt Cromwell: And, um, we had some folks in the LearnDash Facebook group blow up, uh, really heavily. And, um, I jumped in there and I said, Hey, folks, um, I work with this team all the time and I'm going to help you out. And honestly, I I'm a little nervous about it. Like, I really want to make sure that it works out now because I've put my brand, uh, on that, uh, on this other brand now.

[00:13:00] Matt Cromwell: Um, and I, we are making great progress there already. Um, but, um, but it's been a different and interesting experience for sure. So.

[00:13:08] Chris Lema: And your brand, ultimately is not tested when everything is going right. Your brand is tested when everything is going wrong.

[00:13:18] Matt Cromwell: Right? Really good.

[00:13:19] Chris Lema: So, so I am strategic. I'm insightful.

[00:13:22] Chris Lema: I am in gen, I am generous and I'm a coach, right? These are, these are the four pieces of who I am. I can be generous when people are nice to me, I can be nice to them. I can be a coach, someone I like, and I want to give them advice. Great. I can be insightful if I want to spend time, whatever, but what, what if I'm having a bad day?

[00:13:42] Chris Lema: And what if someone's attacking me on Twitter,

[00:13:45] Katie Keith: right?

[00:13:45] Chris Lema: Or someone's attacking me in a Facebook group.

[00:13:48] Katie Keith: Am I

[00:13:49] Chris Lema: generous then? Yep. Right. Your brand is only your brand if it is not only consistent, but it appears right at the moment when you're being tested. Right? And, and that's, that's the hard part, right?

[00:14:04] Chris Lema: Because it's really easy to be generous with other people that are awesome. It's a lot harder to be generous with someone who's a total jerk. And you have to go, okay, let's, let's back up. Let's do this. And, uh, and Facebook groups get wild, right? We know it, right? They get wild. And you're like, okay, how can I stay consistent?

[00:14:22] Chris Lema: You still have to have boundary, but how can I be consistent and stay who I am in the midst of this? Absolutely. And

[00:14:29] Katie Keith: you need to be personal because if you come out at that all corporate, like, we value your opinion, your esteemed views and whatever, then that makes it worse. So you have to put some sort of personality into a social platform, don't you?

[00:14:44] Katie Keith: Otherwise, you just come across as a faceless clone from the company. So I think that's a really important time to do that. Yeah,

[00:14:53] Matt Cromwell: absolutely. That's a great point. Um, real reason why that kind of stuff matters as well, for sure. Uh, do you have some examples in the WordPress space, Chris, of like folks who you feel like have done personal branding really well, besides us, of course, who are on the call?

[00:15:08] Matt Cromwell: Yeah, I mean,

[00:15:09] Chris Lema: it's the two of you. Um, yeah, I think there's, there's a lot of people that, that have developed brands, um, and, uh, And it helps them, right? Like, uh, so our, our friend, uh, Matt Medeiros, like you, if he suddenly said, I'm not going to be on video, I'm not going to be on audio, I'm not going to do any podcasts.

[00:15:32] Chris Lema: I'm like, I'm done with all this. And I'm just going to go, uh, hide off in a corner and work for a company. You would feel that loss almost immediately. Right. And you would feel like that's off brand. Um, it doesn't matter when he announces, Oh, I'm going to go work with GravityForms. You're like, guess GravityForms is getting a podcast.

[00:15:50] Chris Lema: Right. How do I know that? Because I know who Matt is and I know what Matt brings to the table. And I know that obviously when they went to hire Matt, they were like, Hey, we could do some of this stuff. Right. Um, and so, and so you go, yeah, Matt has developed. You know, that, that corner, he's taken that corner.

[00:16:08] Chris Lema: And if someone says, Hey, do you want to create a, obviously other than this one, you want to create a, a, a podcast in WordPress, uh, who should I talk to? I'd be like, well, go, go, go talk to Matt. Right? Like he's done it a million times over. And, and personal branding at its core is basically the, um, the, the, the Google SERP list in someone's brain.

[00:16:33] Chris Lema: Right? When, when someone says to anyone in our community, Hey, if I, if I want to build a black and white monochrome website, right? Who should I talk to? If you all don't think Brian Gardner, right? In the first two seconds of thinking, right? You're, you're like, well, then what is the point? Right? I know that Brian is, he's going to, he's like, I got a brand new, brand new theme and I'm, I'm playing with him, but.

[00:17:00] Chris Lema: Brand new theme. And we're like, let me guess. It's black and white. And then it shows up and it's like, of course it's black and white. Right. That's your jam. And he's like, no, I like color too. I'm like, great. Yeah. Convince me when you come out with something that's super right. But you know, the corner he takes, it's the first name, right?

[00:17:15] Chris Lema: If we're talking about. You know, um, interviews of people who are, um, uh, all over the world and how WordPress has, has made an impact on them. You know, you're going to talk about HeroPress. There's, they've taken a corner and they, and they do that thing and they bring light and they shine a spotlight into parts of the world that maybe you've never thought of or, or heard of.

[00:17:38] Chris Lema: Right. And you're like, this is awesome. So there are all sorts of people that have taken a corner. The question is, if someone says, You know, I want to do donations online. Is there, is there a number one spot in your brain, right? And for me, if someone says donations online, go talk to Matt and Devin, go talk to GiveWP, go talk to these guys.

[00:18:03] Chris Lema: And by the way, if they even hint, Oh, I looked at GiveWP and those guys are just ripping people off, right? You're like, Oh, Oh, Oh, timeout, timeout. You're time out people I know and trust. You're talking about people that have a high level of integrity. You're talking about people who never sold out, never once had, they had multiple options and didn't, and they made their decisions, like stop, right?

[00:18:28] Chris Lema: We can do that when we trust people that we know, but if it was just a corporate thing. entity and we didn't know anyone there. It is much harder for us to anchor trust and establish value when we're like, Hmm, I don't know. You know, so anytime you, anytime you see, particularly in acquisitions, you see something get bought, then you're like, Hmm,

[00:18:50] Matt Cromwell: yeah, who's

[00:18:51] Chris Lema: coming to get bought?

[00:18:52] Chris Lema: Who's coming to do the buying? Do we trust anyone over there? Right. Yeah. Um, that's where it becomes really valuable. Absolutely.

[00:19:00] Katie Keith: Yeah, the Matt Medeiros example is interesting because he plays with his personal brand in a way that I can't decide if it's a good idea or not. Specifically, he changes his username on places like Twitter to something that's not his name.

[00:19:16] Katie Keith: Like, can I be on your podcast or podcaster of the year? And I thought he was so confident, but then he started tweeting, I don't get the engagement I want. So I thought maybe he's not that confident about his personal brand. So what do you think, Chris?

[00:19:33] Chris Lema: Yeah, Katie, I didn't say Matt was smart. I said he's branded.

[00:19:39] Chris Lema: I am, of course, kidding with my friend. Um, so, here's, here's the thing that By the way, I

[00:19:44] Matt Cromwell: have no idea who this is, this Matt Madeiros guy. It's a Matt, right? It's some

[00:19:48] Chris Lema: random Matt. It

[00:19:49] Matt Cromwell: sounds interesting, but not particularly well known.

[00:19:52] Chris Lema: There are people that will change things. Change their name on Twitter, change this, change that.

[00:19:58] Chris Lema: There are people who have animated, or non animated, but caricatures on Twitter as their, as their And I, I, I think all of those things are mistakes. Um, but I don't care, right? Like you do you and I'll do me. And if, and if I, you know, and I wear a hat every day and they're like, I think that's stupid. And you're like, that's fair.

[00:20:19] Chris Lema: It's fine. Right. Um, but part of, Part of a personal brand is you're present, you're different, you're helpful, you're humble, you know, you're, you're, people are aware that you're there. I don't know if you've ever been to someone's wedding, you go to the wedding, you were there the whole time, you go to the reception, you were there the whole time, you leave.

[00:20:40] Chris Lema: And then six weeks later, tell your friend, they're like, Hey, were you at the wedding? And you're like, Oh God. Did I just, did I literally just hide in the, was I a wallflower? Right. Did I disappear among air? So how do you make your presence felt? How do you make your, how do you make, so people are like, Oh yeah, that's right.

[00:20:58] Chris Lema: And so whether it's, you know, Matt remembers I, I, I did 12 to 15 talks a year and wore the same shirt every single time for like three years.

[00:21:08] Matt Cromwell: That's a great call.

[00:21:09] Chris Lema: The same exact shirt. Why? Because I was getting on stage to tell stories.

[00:21:16] Matt Cromwell: Yeah.

[00:21:17] Chris Lema: Right? And so I took a shirt, right? Took a shirt that said, Cool Story Bro.

[00:21:22] Chris Lema: Which, by the way, people who didn't know the phrase, Cool Story Bro, would listen to my stories and they would be like, Cool Story Bro, very positively. And if someone didn't like me on stage, they'd be like, Well, he's mocking himself because Cool Story Bro is like, Yeah, dude, you're wasting my time. Either way, it worked.

[00:21:36] Chris Lema: But I had a black t shirt with grey text that said, Cool Story Bro. I wore it for two or three years. And there was not a single person who didn't know I was there. Right. When I, when I switched off from that and switched to wearing a hat all the time and hats that have color and colors that match the clothes I'm wearing, whatever, right.

[00:21:53] Chris Lema: However, it was people are literally in airports like, Hey, are you at O'Hare right now? And I'm like, no, I'm like, Oh, there's a guy that's three feet in front of me at the Starbucks in O'Hare. And I swear, it's you when people see you, even when you're not there. You've done something with brand. So, so Matt changing his name or other people changing their, their photos or putting characters, I'm like, no, no, no, make it easy for people.

[00:22:19] Chris Lema: Keep your name there. Keep your image there. Make it easy for people to connect you with that. Um, so there's things anybody can do and, and. Improvements people can make, but, um, that doesn't stop the fact that if you say, right, Matt Medeiros, that people are going to put, they have a number one ranking of what that means.

[00:22:36] Chris Lema: And the same thing with Topher and the same thing with many other people.

[00:22:40] Matt Cromwell: Absolutely. Well, we're getting a little bit right into that, um, personal experiences with this. Uh, and I'd love to explore that a little bit more. Um, I thought it'd be interesting and fun For us to maybe talk a little bit about each other's brands, because I think it's really the biggest aspect of personal branding is, is that we can want and desire whatever messaging we think about, um, how we project ourselves out there.

[00:23:04] Matt Cromwell: But at the end of the day, it's really about perception. How do people perceive us out in the world? Um, and is our, the way that we're, um, presenting our personal brand, is it actually communicating to people and being effective or not? I mean, the stuff that Chris was saying right now, like. In my mind, Chris is a storyteller, like, because I lived under his storytelling for a long time.

[00:23:26] Matt Cromwell: And he continues to be a storyteller. That to me is like, a big aspect of who Chris is. Like, when I said, like, what do you tell folks about personal branding to product? He's like, I tell them the story of Go, Daddy. Like, he doesn't say, I have this example, or I did have this one cool experience, or whatever he's like.

[00:23:43] Matt Cromwell: I tell them this story. Um, Chris is the storyteller guy. Like, that, to me, is a big aspect of what he does. Um, and Katie, for me, has always been the, the build in public kind of person. I know that's maybe not the best, the most accurate phrase, but the way that you are really transparent about The, uh, all the things you're learning and all the things you're doing and all the things you're experimenting with, uh, through your business and with your business, um, not only in front of all of the WordPress audience, but in front of your employees, your team members, um, and, and how you're really transparent about that, like, To me, that's a big part of, of, uh, of who you are, um, and your, and your personal brand.

[00:24:24] Matt Cromwell: I don't know if that's exactly how you think about it, but that's how I think about it. Um, I don't know. Katie, does that resonate with you or am I way off base?

[00:24:34] Katie Keith: Yeah, the only thing which you did pick up on is the phrase, build in public. I actually hate that because that implies that you're being contrived about it.

[00:24:42] Katie Keith: You're doing it as a service. Strategy. And we both mentioned that at the beginning about being intentional or strategic with your personal brand. Whereas I would say that I have become conscious of it over time, but um, it's not actually something that I thought, right, I'm going to be really open and that will make me known for this and get respect.

[00:25:04] Katie Keith: That actually wasn't how it worked. It kind of happened. So, um, I never really, yeah, a build in public, I think it is, I see that as a negative when people start hashtagging it because it's like, well, you're just doing that as a strategy and you're not genuine, personally.

[00:25:22] Matt Cromwell: I mean, I like to build in public strategy in general, but I think, I love the way that you are personally saying that it's kind of the way things evolve because that's who you are naturally.

[00:25:32] Matt Cromwell: You just, you like to have, um, Your, your insights on your sleeve, I guess that's maybe not the best analogy either. But like, you like to be able to talk about these things and get input and feedback from others. Um, and that's just who you are. And you started doing that and it started to evolve. I think definitely that's something that happens with folks, um, is that the personal brand kind of evolves.

[00:25:53] Matt Cromwell: And I think it should, because it should be an extension of who you are and not just something that you're like, okay, now I'm going to be this, like, like I can't ever go be like, Now I'm this like cutthroat, like sales at all costs kind of person. Like I just, I can't make that decision. I can't, it's not, it's not who I am naturally.

[00:26:10] Matt Cromwell: Um, I don't know. Chris, does that resonate with you? What do you think about like perceptions of personal brands? What do you see with Katie and I, things like that?

[00:26:18] Chris Lema: Yeah. Well, I, I think, you know, Katie, what you're talking about is being authentic, right? And I think, I think there's a, there's a strong case to be made that that's, that's the corner you're taking, right?

[00:26:32] Chris Lema: Is that authenticity. You're also a learner, right? Someone who is, uh, digging through all sorts of things to, to, you know, kind of get a handle on them, to learn them, and then, you know, Learners aren't just people that absorb and take in, right? They also share it with others. And so, so you do this comprehend thing, but then you also express it to others, right?

[00:26:52] Chris Lema: And the comprehend and express kind of motivation sits really, really strongly with, with all of your, your public stuff. And that's fantastic. Where that gets tested, Right. Is what happens when you don't know something that when, when you go to learn it right, it actually, it actually changes your position, right?

[00:27:12] Chris Lema: So you were, you were going this way and all of a sudden someone wants to introduce something new to you. And will you, will you pivot with the new information or will you stay anchored? Now, if I had to put money on it, I'd be like, Oh, she'll pivot. Cause she's a learner. She wants to take it in and grow.

[00:27:26] Chris Lema: But that's, that's where all personal brand Is where the rubber hits the road is that it's again, it's easy to be generous or, or strategic or insightful or whatever with, with the scenarios that are perfect. It's what happens when you get pushed back on that, right? And that's where you go, okay, now it becomes something where you realize.

[00:27:45] Chris Lema: And it, and, and what you described organically is how most personal brand works. You're doing something without thinking about it. It's not contrived. It's just who we are. And then someone says the words out loud. And says, Oh, you are a learner or a comprehensive expressor. You are a coach or you are a, and then you go.

[00:28:04] Chris Lema: Yeah, I am.

[00:28:05] Katie Keith: And

[00:28:06] Chris Lema: then, now that you've put the word on it, now you start seeing it more, right? You, you've all been through the experience, right? Where you're, you, you've never seen whatever car, whatever car you want to talk about. You've never seen it on the road, and then you buy one, right? And all of a sudden you see them everywhere, right?

[00:28:25] Chris Lema: And it's because now you're paying attention in a different way. And with a personal brand, when someone puts the brand on you, says, Oh, you're a storyteller. And you're like, yeah, of course. I mean, I've been publicly speaking since I was a kid and dah, dah, dah. But when they go, you're a storyteller, you're like, right now, let me embrace that.

[00:28:42] Chris Lema: But then also how do I improve it? How do I become better at it? How do we become more known for it? Where do I put in place? So all of that organic process, um, Is, is honestly how it should work. And it should be, as Matt was saying, it should be very close and near and dear to your heart. This is who I am, right?

[00:29:02] Chris Lema: This is how I work. Because when there's a distinction between who you are in private and who you are in public, that gap will get wider and wider. The pressure. Of that external persona will get heavier and heavier on who you are authentically. And one day you'll just quit it all. You'll, you'll pull the rip cord and you'll be like, it's too hard to be fake.

[00:29:26] Chris Lema: And I don't want to do it anymore. And I'm tired of it. And we've watched countless CEOs just either explode or walk away. Um, cause they were sitting under the weight of a persona that wasn't their own. Right. Um, and that's why you want it to be so, so close to who you are. Right? That's

[00:29:45] Katie Keith: interesting. Matt, Matt's egg.

[00:29:48] Chris Lema: Sorry, go ahead. I

[00:29:48] Katie Keith: suppose somebody who doesn't have much of a personal brand because they've always kind of worked in private and not put themselves out there, um, I suppose they should just be more public in their work without necessarily thinking how they want to project themselves because that should be a, um, an extension of their personality.

[00:30:08] Katie Keith: Is that what you're saying?

[00:30:10] Chris Lema: I'm saying that if those people who are quietly working at their own desk And they weren't public anywhere. If they were to reach out to five of their closest friends and say, what makes me unique? And they got the same kind of answers three out of five times or four out of five times, they could double down on that.

[00:30:27] Chris Lema: It doesn't mean that a personal brand has to go on Twitter. It doesn't mean that a personal brand has to go on Facebook. It doesn't mean that the personal brand has to be the marketing. It just means that when I approach a certain person in a certain context and they have consistently done the same thing over and over again, I start connecting that brand with that person.

[00:30:48] Chris Lema: And then the consequence of that is I start thinking about that company because of that person. So imagine that you go to the airport and you go to a small airport. Right? I mean, I, I had companies in places where the, the, the woman that checked me in at the ticket gate was the same woman who checked me in at the gate.

[00:31:07] Chris Lema: Not, I mean, the, the one that was at the place where you drop off the luggage, she's the same woman who showed up at the ticketing gate to let me through. And then when I sat in my seat on the plane and I looked out the window, she was throwing bags in the plane. I thought for a second she was going to get on the plane and, and fly it, right?

[00:31:21] Chris Lema: I'm like, this woman does everything here, but she was so nice. And this is at like five or six in the morning that when people start saying, Hey, you could go to this other, you could go to this other airport. It's bigger, right? Cause some early morning flights would get canceled. And I'm like, I go to Traverse City in Northern Michigan, even though it only has four gates.

[00:31:43] Chris Lema: Because the woman that works the United desk is the best ever. And then it'd be like, I hate United. I'm like, I don't care. That woman takes care of anything and everything. And so when I, when I finally, when we switched companies and I was going somewhere else, I was flying in other airports, whatever I could switch from United to Delta without blinking, but it wasn't because I cared about United or Delta.

[00:32:06] Chris Lema: It was because, Hey, that United experience I had was that one person, that one person was sitting at that desk. She wasn't famous. She was awesome. And when I stopped that encounter, it was a lot easier for me to switch brands because I was no longer being loyal or disloyal to her.

[00:32:23] Matt Cromwell: I was in a

[00:32:23] Chris Lema: completely different airport.

[00:32:26] Matt Cromwell: Yep, absolutely. I love it. Um, I love to lean in a little bit on that whole aspect of how these have fleshed out for us personally in different ways. Um, Katie, I'd love to hear a little bit more about your, your journey with your personal brand, how you perceive yourself. I don't, I didn't want to like speak for you in terms of what your personal brand is, especially if you don't like the built in public tag.

[00:32:48] Matt Cromwell: Um, so how, how have you been thinking through it personally?

[00:32:53] Katie Keith: Well, I kind of haven't. Um, so, uh, it just sort of happened and then I've reflected on it and the benefits after the fact. So, um, I joined Twitter largely because I got freaked out at WordCamp US in San Diego because that was the one that was quite small when it was mostly people from large companies, particularly Stellar.

[00:33:16] Katie Keith: They seemed to rule the place. Um, and I was like me from my little independently owned company that, uh, doesn't have a big backer or anything like that. And I came away thinking, how can I stay, um, keep, have the impact that I need to while wanting to remain independent and all of that stuff. And so I did things like join Twitter and just be a bit more involved and involved.

[00:33:42] Katie Keith: And I didn't know. how other people use Twitter because I'd never been interested in it. I'd actually been really anti Twitter always. Um, so I didn't know that a lot of people are quite fake on there and, um, in my view and things like that. And so I just started like asking questions, talking about what I was working on.

[00:34:02] Katie Keith: Um, it became and still is basically my professional stream of consciousness, I suppose. So if I need to research something, I'll stick something on Twitter. Oh, who's, um, You can recommend a good A B testing tool or whatever it is, and then experienced people from the WordPress community tell me what they're using, and I don't have to do the work.

[00:34:24] Katie Keith: They just do my work for me, and then everyone, and if there's a stat I want to share, like I'm looking at numbers, I'll share the number and some charts and everyone. tells me hopefully their charts so I can compare and benchmark. And then suddenly everybody was saying, Oh, you're so open. You share so much.

[00:34:43] Katie Keith: I love the way you're doing it. And it wasn't a strategy. It was just what came naturally, which I discovered had business benefits because people were basically doing my job for me via Twitter. So that became my personal brand. And I've thought about the benefits of it because I could be spending, like I said earlier, that time on direct types of marketing or something like that, SEO or ads or whatever.

[00:35:10] Katie Keith: Um, and so I think, as well as like the practical, actionable business advice I get from expert people in the WordPress world, I have literally had some of my plugins acquired through being on Twitter, and it's only becoming a bit well known that that brought that opportunity. Um, I've had a few sales from it as well, but that's not the main thing, which is why I need to reflect on this, because what other benefits are there?

[00:35:37] Katie Keith: And I've also noticed it's made me just more connected generally, like, Um, I'm working on a new project at the moment, which I'm not ready to say what yet, but I've been reaching out to people that I know specialize in that area, and because they know me from online and things, I've had like two consultation calls with people for free this week, where they're just giving me advice, um, and things like that, which I don't think would have happened if I was some unknown person that they'd never heard of.

[00:36:08] Chris Lema: Yeah, absolutely. One of the things that you did, Katie, is when you published information about your business, right? Um, this is, this is where personal branding becomes really powerful, is when you create contrast, when you zig and others are zagging. So no one else is publishing, you know, here's, here's how many tickets we closed this week, or here's how many sales we did by, you know, across these products, whatever.

[00:36:34] Chris Lema: People aren't normally sharing that. And since they're not normally sharing that, that's That's the zag. Everyone's zagging, right? And you zig. And when you zig, when others zag, you create contrast. And when you create contrast, it's like catnip for cats. It's the catnip of people's brains. Everyone else is just seeing, like we've all, we've all done it, right?

[00:36:57] Chris Lema: You see everybody doing the same thing and you just can't even,

[00:37:00] Katie Keith: yeah,

[00:37:01] Chris Lema: you can't even tell what it is. It doesn't matter, right? Cause it's just flowing right past you. Cause you don't care. Cause it's all the same noise. And then someone does something different. And when someone does something different, the contrast causes our brain to go, pay attention.

[00:37:15] Chris Lema: And so when you're thinking about personal brand, it's not enough to be like, Oh, I want to be helpful. Yeah. So does everybody else. Everybody wants to be helpful. Like that's, you're not going to anchor on, well, I'm helpful because. It's not, there's no contrast there. So when you're developing your brand, right?

[00:37:34] Chris Lema: Um, Matt is helpful. There's no question Matt is helpful, but Matt is more than helpful. Matt is like, you know, the, the, the cheering section for whoever you are. So. Where other people are like, cool. Yeah. See you later. Right. Matt's like, tell me about your thing. What's going on? Da da da. Wow. That's great.

[00:37:55] Chris Lema: Let's get more people to pay attention to you. Oh, let's get other people to know you. Here, let me introduce other people to you. And you're like, how did this guy join staff and become my, my, you know, cheerleader? And he's like, no, that's just. That's just what I do. Like, I can't help myself, right? I, I, if, if you're awesome, I want other people to know you.

[00:38:13] Chris Lema: Um, and so Matt is a friend to everyone and Matt brings people to the table and you go, this is great, but it's great. Not just because it's authentic, not just because it's who he is. It's great because no one else does that. So the contrast helps it become something that helps him stand apart.

[00:38:31] Matt Cromwell: Yeah, I appreciate that.

[00:38:32] Matt Cromwell: I think that's really interesting because the similarity there I think is exactly what Katie was saying too. She's like, she got on Twitter and she's just like, this is what I do. This is who I am. And then it's like, what? This isn't what everybody does. That's my experience of these things too. It's like, you come on board, you're different than me.

[00:38:48] Matt Cromwell: I want to know everything about you, what you do and why you do what you do. And then I want to tell everybody else why you're so awesome. That's just how I work. That's just how I operate. And I'm like, why doesn't everybody operate? Doesn't everybody do that kind of thing? Like, I don't understand. Um, and it's a perfect example of how these things have to be just like a natural expression of, of who you are and not some sort of like, like weird add on to your brain or something like that.

[00:39:13] Matt Cromwell: That's, I think that's great. I will say, like, from my perspective, from my own kind of journey, um, of these types of things, And Chris has been witness to all of this, so if I'm, uh, I'm not making anything up, but like early, earliest days, I was a lot like Katie, honestly, I was just like fumbling my way into web development and trying to like help my clients, and I was like, I don't know what I'm doing most of the time, I just need to go and ask questions out in public.

[00:39:40] Matt Cromwell: We had this little Facebook group called Advanced WordPress. And I was in there, the noisiest, loudest, most obnoxious newbie, trying to figure out how to build a website with WordPress. Um, and, um, we grew that group a lot and we started doing a lot more local meetups and things like that. I went to my first couple, um, WordCamps eventually, and this was already after we had launched Give, and I'm thinking I'm the Give guy.

[00:40:07] Matt Cromwell: But people were like, you're Matt from Advanced WordPress. And I was like, that's true. That's not what I want to be known by.

[00:40:16] Katie Keith: Actually, I made that mistake with you because I knew you from a Facebook group. I didn't know what Give was.

[00:40:22] Matt Cromwell: That's so funny. I mean, that's, that's the thing. It was like, I want to be known by this thing.

[00:40:27] Matt Cromwell: This is a thing that I'm so proud of that I'm putting like all of my time in and I ended up being known because I blog about little jQuery snippets that I created forever ago, or, or things like that. People got to know me that way. That took me a while to actually be like, I need to leverage this because there's something there.

[00:40:44] Matt Cromwell: I need to leverage this but I need to leverage it for Give. And so I really started being a lot more, um, Uh, focused on how non profits can benefit from the work that we're doing, really being really public about the work I was doing with local non profits, um, and really trying to laser in on just talking about those things as much as I could.

[00:41:03] Matt Cromwell: And I think that's part of it, too, is like developing and honing a brand, a personal brand, is also, you know, Starting to eventually say no to all the things that are, that you don't want to have as core to who you are. And what, like, the Advanced WordPress Facebook group is still there, and I still am an admin there, and I still do stuff there, but I don't talk about it ever, you know?

[00:41:24] Matt Cromwell: It's not something that I promote, or, or it's interesting, it's helpful, whatever, but like, you know, It's not, it's not the core of what I'm trying to push out there anymore. Um, the other one that really struck me, Chris, that you mentioned, that I have a story there too is, um, how our brands are tested, um, in, um, when people are testing them, when, when people are difficult.

[00:41:47] Matt Cromwell: Um, I've had the, um, Unfortunate, um, experience of being in the That's my cat, actually. Maybe someone else tell a quick story and I'll let my cat out. I'll be right back.

[00:42:04] Chris Lema: He's like, uh, now I'm going to be known as the guy who runs a podcast but walks out in the middle of the interview.

[00:42:11] Katie Keith: Well, it reminds me of Mullenweg's recent interview with Theo when the cat jumped on him. So I was thinking that was gonna happen with this Matt and there was gonna be some parallels there.

[00:42:23] Chris Lema: He's like, no, I'm taking the cat and taking it out of the office.

[00:42:33] Katie Keith: He's really letting that cat out.

[00:42:35] Chris Lema: Yeah, he, he, he no longer has a cat. He walked it all the way off the property and threw it in the street. That's, that's, that's what happened.

[00:42:44] Katie Keith: You took that cat really far.

[00:42:48] Matt Cromwell: My office is down in our basement and, uh, I got to get her up into the first floor. Oh my gosh.

[00:42:56] Katie Keith: That

[00:42:56] Matt Cromwell: guy who showed up to the court case and he had the cat avatar all over his face.

[00:43:00] Matt Cromwell: You know, I don't know if you ever saw that one.

[00:43:02] Chris Lema: We, we were, we were thinking your cat was going to jump on the table. Uh, or in your lab, like, like another Matt's, uh, recent

[00:43:09] Matt Cromwell: podcast. Oh yeah, I didn't see that one. I don't pay attention to what that Matt does. He doesn't seem very important. So, um,

[00:43:18] Katie Keith: He doesn't even have an avatar.

[00:43:19] Katie Keith: He just has a pink circle, um, referring to what Chris said earlier.

[00:43:24] Chris Lema: I have no idea. I have no comment.

[00:43:30] Matt Cromwell: Um, yeah, no, the other one is just, I had the unfortunate, uh, circumstance of being on the tail end of, um, of some difficult stuff on the give side. We definitely have had some users who, uh, who were, uh, fundraising for nefarious purposes. Um, and, um, I ended up using my personal brand to say we're getting rid of these customers.

[00:43:56] Matt Cromwell: Um, and, um, they didn't love it. Um, and it became a big blow up, um, on Twitter also, uh, unfortunately, and It was one of those times in which, um, I definitely felt like I'm, I, I want to be known as a generous person and cancelling the customer does not feel particularly generous, except for the fact that I'm doing it because this person is, is, is, you know, partaking in hate speech.

[00:44:23] Matt Cromwell: Uh, and that's when I have to stand up, um, for everyone else and be like, this is not the kind of thing that we do. Uh, it's not what we stand for. And it was amazing to see so many people who did know me and did know what, um, I'm about and did know what Give is all about come around and, um, and be supportive in that time because, um, You know, it's one of those times where I went viral for all the wrong reasons.

[00:44:48] Matt Cromwell: Um, and, uh, and it was really challenging and difficult people, uh, actually hiding stuff from my blog about my family and stuff like that. It was really hard. And when,

[00:44:56] Chris Lema: when that happens, the effort, the focus that you've put on personal branding, um, You forget about all that, but it's what will often carry you through that hard time.

[00:45:13] Chris Lema: When you go popular for the wrong reasons, right? When you go viral for the wrong reasons, and then the people who know you, your, your friends, the community you've built around you and know your brand, they have not one touch point. They have not two touch points. They don't have five touch points. They have a hundred touch points where they're like, hey, Matt has consistently been one of the good guys.

[00:45:35] Chris Lema: So let's give him the benefit of the doubt on this situation. And let's assume that maybe he's actually trying to do something positive, not negative, right? And that's where the, the, the personal brand at the end of the day, right? Like I said, it creates opportunities. It establishes value. It increases reach, it anchors trust.

[00:45:53] Chris Lema: But the other one it does is it keeps you sane. Right. When other people can reflect back to you, this is who we know you to be. And and, and we trust you on that. Right. And that keeps you sane. When you're hearing new voices, you've never heard of before, right? People that have three followers on Twitter, suddenly have this huge, big opinion about you.

[00:46:14] Chris Lema: The words still hurt, right? And so how do you build a community around you of people that, that trust you and know you and say, Hey, I can articulate how you've established value over years. And, and that changes the conversation when someone wants to say this person's really bad and they're like, Nope, no, he's not.

[00:46:36] Chris Lema: You're, you're wrong about that.

[00:46:37] Matt Cromwell: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, that's what I felt exactly in that time, too, and it really did matter, and I was thankful for it, um, even though the, like, week to ten days of that whole barrage was absolutely not fun. Yeah. Um, we, uh, always wrap up every episode with our best advice.

[00:46:59] Matt Cromwell: Um, think of it like you're running through a WordCamp, and you're in the hallway track, and somebody's like, oh, Chris, hey, um, I want to get into personal branding. What can you tell me? You got like one minute to tell them what you think before you run over to that next meeting. Um, what is your best advice for folks who want to start building their personal brand for their product business?

[00:47:20] Matt Cromwell: Um, Chris, you go first. Okay,

[00:47:23] Chris Lema: so, um, I got one minute. I would say pick the three, four things that you want to be known for. Write them down, right? For me, strategic, insightful, generous coach. Write them down. Now, you're going to get on the phone with someone. You're getting on a Zoom call with someone. You're going to have a podcast episode with someone, right?

[00:47:47] Chris Lema: Don't get off the call. Don't end the conversation. Don't end the podcast interview. Without making sure that those things have materialized. It's really that simple, right? If you're going to be a coach. And you say, well, I can't help a coach. I can't help, but give advice. I can't help, but whatever. Then make sure that every touch point is synchronized.

[00:48:13] Chris Lema: Make sure that every touch point is same. Make sure that everyone says I had a call with him and I had a call with him and I had a call with him. Oh my gosh. He was so insightful and so strategic. And you're like, there, check the box. Now I can hang up.

[00:48:25] Matt Cromwell: Nice.

[00:48:26] Chris Lema: Love it. I think that was one minute.

[00:48:28] Matt Cromwell: Yeah, estimated one minute.

[00:48:31] Matt Cromwell: Good. Katie, what's your best advice? I mean, I know that you kind of have said you're gonna, you're kind of giving your advice to yourself because this is a evolutionary thing for you. But, uh, what do you think?

[00:48:44] Katie Keith: Yeah, mine is something I've got wrong, actually, which is think about who you want to be known among.

[00:48:50] Katie Keith: Because I am best known among WordPress product people, that seems to have become my thing. But the majority of them are not my target customers. Actually, if I was being strategic, then I should be better known amongst, particularly WooCommerce store owners. And I am making some headway into that. For example, I've been invited to be a speaker at the WSESH conference in a couple of weeks.

[00:49:15] Katie Keith: So that is about getting my brand out as an expert in e commerce so that they will then trust my product. But as a whole, I am most known in an area which isn't as relevant to my business as it might be.

[00:49:29] Matt Cromwell: Yeah, nice. Love it. Um, mine is similar, I think, between both of you in many ways. Once, like with Chris, you've identified those core things, pruned.

[00:49:40] Matt Cromwell: Um, and that's what I feel like I've done a lot over the years, is start pruning the stuff that isn't, um, that central message, or isn't those three or four things. When I was first blogging, I would blog about a jQuery thing. I'd blog about, like, SEO stuff. I'd blog about a theme that I think is crap. Um, I blog about what I did in high school for sports.

[00:50:00] Matt Cromwell: Like, none of these things really mattered at that time, very much. And people were starting to identify me as a certain type of thing that I resonated with. And I had to start slowly not doing those other activities. Um, because I do want to have, um, folks who want to be celebrated, who want to, who need to have the, um Help getting into the freemium WordPress space.

[00:50:22] Matt Cromwell: Those are the folks who I want to have conversations with. So I'm going to not pretend that I'm an SEO expert anymore, and I'm not going to be promoting any of that stuff, but I will tell you that I absolutely love helping to optimize, uh, readmes on the plugin directory. If that's available to you, that is of course.

[00:50:41] Matt Cromwell: But, um, uh, you know, prune those, those things outta your life so that you can focus on the things that are most important, um, that are gonna move the needle for you. Cool. Great conversation folks. I really appreciate it. Um, and, uh, Chris, thanks so much for being here. Where can everybody find you, Chris?

[00:51:00] Chris Lema: Uh, chris lema.com.

[00:51:03] Chris Lema: At Chris Lema on Twitter, uh, corporately [email protected]. Um, I think I'm on Facebook too. Right. I think I'm still in the, uh, advanced WordPress. I may have stepped out of that moderation thing when I joined Liquid Web just so I didn't have any, um, uh, conflicts of interest. But, um, yeah, I'm, I remember, I remember setting that group up.

[00:51:32] Chris Lema: I mean, that was a long, long time ago. Long eons ago. And what's hilarious is that like 12 minutes after setting it up, someone put in a post and someone else replied and said, that's not advanced enough.

[00:51:46] Katie Keith: And

[00:51:47] Chris Lema: it's stayed that way ever since, right? Like it's been, I don't know, 15 years and people are still like, we need the advanced, advanced group.

[00:51:54] Chris Lema: And then someone else like, we need the advanced, advanced, advanced group. And you're like, okay. I thought this was advanced

[00:51:59] Matt Cromwell: WordPress. Why are you asking about plugins? Yeah. Uh, Yeah. Well, folks, uh, as we said, we're kicking things off again. We got about six to seven to eight weeks of content coming your way for the next seven or eight Wednesdays in a row.

[00:52:17] Matt Cromwell: Next week, we're going to be chatting with Jason Coleman from Paid Memberships Pro, um, all about partnering with other, uh, WordPress companies. Um, I'm excited to, uh, watch that episode later. I'm going to be on vacation, actually, next week. So, as always, thanks everybody for being here and, uh, do all the fun, uh, like and subscribe stuff to keep us going.

[00:52:40] Matt Cromwell: And, uh, we'll see you next time. Bye.