Beyond the Grave: Safeguarding Your Business Legacy

[00:00:13] Zack Katz: One second, shoot.

[00:00:16] Katie Keith: You have to add us.

[00:00:20] Zack Katz: I'm sorry. no. Katie, can you turn this back on, please?

[00:00:33] Katie Keith: Introduction!

[00:00:34] Zack Katz: It is a spooky, spooky episode of WP Product Talk. Thank you for joining us, everybody. This is WP Product Talk, the spookiest podcast and the place where every week we interview an experienced WordPress product owner on strategies, tips, experiences, failures, and successes of running successful and thriving WordPress product businesses. I am Zach Katz, founder of Gravity Kit and Trusted Login.

[00:01:01] Katie Keith: And I'm Katie Keith, co-founder and CEO at Barn2, or BarnWoo as I have today.

[00:01:08] Zack Katz: And today's topic is beyond the grave, safeguarding your business legacy.

[00:01:15] Katie Keith: Now, this is a great topic because it's something that I've never really seen being discussed openly in the WordPress community, but it's something that we should all be thinking about.

[00:01:26] Zack Katz: And to talk with us today about this topic is our special guest, Carl Alexander. Katie, could you add Carl Alexander,

[00:01:37] Carl Alexander: Hello.

[00:01:38] Zack Katz: Hello

[00:01:39] Katie Keith: Welcome Carl, thanks for joining us.

[00:01:41] Carl Alexander: Greetings from the future.

[00:01:45] Katie Keith: Who did that? Are you doing that? Are we adding him and taking him away at the same time?

[00:01:47] Zack Katz: I'm... I'm leaving it alone. Hello, Carl. Thank you for joining us from the future.

[00:01:56] Carl Alexander: Spooky tech show where everything's the techs all possessed and everything We can blame it on Halloween Instead of just glitches, but yes greetings from the future. It is now Thursday here in Tokyo

[00:02:13] Zack Katz: Carol, can you please introduce yourself and what you do?

[00:02:17] Carl Alexander: Yeah, so I am Carl. I'm solo founder. I'm working on Ymir which is basically running WordPress on AWS Lambda as a serverless application. And yeah, we were talking, I'm getting ahead of myself, but basically that's what I do.

[00:02:41] Zack Katz: Excellent. Well, for anybody who's watching along the YouTube chat, watching live on YouTube, please go into the chat, say hi, ask questions. We will see your questions and we may ask Carl what you ask us. So please go ahead and leave your comments there.

[00:03:01] Katie Keith: Yeah. So as always, let's start with talking about why is this topic so important for WordPress product owners? I think it's particularly important to talk about that with this particular topic because it's something we don't really want to talk about. We want to imagine that we will live forever and that the way that we will exit our business is through selling it or retiring or something like that, not through us passing and leaving things behind unexpectedly. But that could happen to any of us. And so it's important that we think about it. And it's interesting because our businesses are in many cases our biggest assets, or certainly an important part of our assets along with our home and bank accounts and other personal assets. And so it's really important to know what to do with them. In society, I think it's more known how to deal with your personal assets when you die rather than your business assets. So it's important to think about that and give it the worth that it deserves. Carl, why do you think it's such an important thing to talk about?

[00:04:12] Carl Alexander: Yeah, actually, I have no sort of will or anything like that. I just kind of stumbled on the issue because I thought it was a really interesting thing as a solo founder as well, right? There's a kind of an increasing amount of share of businesses now, especially WordPress. I know a couple of people that are basically solo founders that are just running a small WordPress business by themselves and there's a kind of appeal, especially if you're trying to do kind of a lifestyle business of trying to stay small, limit the scope of what your business does and things like that. what happens, you know, what not right now we're talking like the most cryptic thing, which is, you know, what happens if you you pass, but like for a solo founder, could be simple as like I get hit by a car. and what happens in, in those scenarios. And, it was something I was thinking about, but it's something also that started coming up when I, cause Ymir is, is more, tailored towards enterprise. So there's just something that comes up in sales calls. there are just, What are you like what happened like you're you're you're alone like what happens if something happens to you and I just basically Already had a plan in place, but it was just not something I hear any solo founders talk about like it's always about the lifestyle like you know grow your grow your MRR grow this You know and but it's never about like okay now you've made it like but what happens if something happens to you?

[00:06:09] Zack Katz: Absolutely. And one of the things that as business owners, we also need to consider is it's not just about us. It's not about our business and like our assets only. If we work with anybody else, it's about what we are promising to them and what each one of the people that depend on us as product owners, we need to make sure that... are employees or contractors. We need to make sure that our plans support them after something happens to us. If we get hit by a bus and we're not available to run the everyday business, even if we don't die, what does the plan look like for making sure they get paid on a regular basis, for making sure that the business continues operating? Because our customers also deserve us to have a continuity plan to make sure that when we are gone, that they continue to benefit from our services.

[00:07:12] Carl Alexander: Yeah, absolutely. I think that's why I was like, we were talking on Twitter and I was just saying, like, I feel like it's it's kind of this weird topic that I think it's not even like we don't want to think about debt per se. Like, I just think it's really a human nature to think nothing's gonna happen to you. So it's just that's like a classic. Like, that's why like, sometimes people don't have insurance or a will ready or things like that. It's just like, oh, you have so much more time, like nothing's going to happen to you and then something does and you're not prepared.

[00:07:52] Zack Katz: So let's break it down in terms of what this looks like. What does continuity planning mean, Carl? What are we talking about here?

[00:08:04] Carl Alexander: my goodness. mean, look, for me, it's not as crazy as it must be for YouTube because I'm just like a solo founder and I don't have employees or things like that. The main thing is that with Ymir per se, Ymir is... an infrastructure product. So it's not, I don't do hosting per se, but you host your WordPress sites with it. Like you still pay for your own AWS bills. So even if Ymir kind of disappeared, it's not like your WordPress site would disappear, but it's still a concern, right? You're for people. So I had to just explain to them, I just had to make sure that I had things in place that made sure that the service could continue, that the product could continue in some way. So the way that I did it is that first of all, I found a friend that I trust and I gave him access to the GitHub repository of the main application. And I said, if something happens to me, you make it open source, like you make it public so that people can come in, look at the code, They can try to self-host it. Somebody can come over and start another business around it. So that was one way of making sure that the product lived on. Because again, that's what you were talking, Zach. It's like, how do we make sure that the product lives on if we're not there anymore? So that was one of the main things that I made sure was covered so that if you were an enterprise agency, you could find an engineer to like... spin it up and you could just do a co-located your own version of it. And then for the business itself, just made sure like, it sounds really dumb, but I gave the security sheet from one password to my parents. And I said, this is the most important piece of paper that I own here is that it is, and just make sure my credit card gets paid. Like, and that covers is for me.

[00:10:31] Zack Katz: Yeah, and when it comes to one password, I use one password as well, and that's kind of how we have structured things as well. So my wife and I are co-owners of the business, but I run the business day to day. And so if anything were to happen to me, she would take over and she would be in charge of knowing all the things. And so many of the things to know are passwords and logins and credentials and all these like details that If you aren't using a password manager, I would say the number one thing you can do to improve your continuity planning is to put all your passwords in a one password manager. Like one, the number one password is the app that I use and Carl uses. And then you can print out of this sheet and you can put in a safety deposit box, give it to your lawyer, give it to your accountant, give it to somebody offsite. Ideally, give it to your spouse, your parents. give this to somebody who knows that they go here and sign in. And then what we do is we have a note. I created a note that says, okay, here are the important things to know about how the business is run. And there's a lot of overlap between continuity planning and documentation of processes. And I think if there's anything in your head, that when you die, it's just gone. Nobody knows how to recreate what you do. That is a gap in your planning for if he were to die or get seriously injured and no longer able to run the business. anything that's in your head is a liability, not just for continuity planning, not just if you die. If you're looking to be acquired, all this stuff is important for the person who's going to be acquiring you. Every single thing that's in your head is something that they will want written down anyway. So buy doing this by preparing for your own imminent doom, you're going to help yourself if you ever want to sell your business.

[00:12:33] Katie Keith: Yeah, that's true. When I started mine, I kind of made an assumption that I was preparing a document to help people sell the business and approached it with that in mind. And then over the years, I've kind of realized, actually, no, that would be a long term thing. And my next of kin would need to keep running it for the reasons we said earlier, there are real people working for the business is a team of like 15 people. not including the directors, and also there's all of the customers as well and things like that. And we even have some historical clients who we look after their website still, and that's important for their businesses. So there's quite a lot. It's interesting, we've got some quite different perspectives between the three of us because we've got Carl as a solo printer, Zach who runs the company with your wife, but... she's not as actively involved. And I run the company 50-50 with my husband Andy. So our continuity planning is really 100 % focused on if something happened to both of us. If it was just one of us, we know how to access each other's stuff. We know vaguely what each other works on. And professionally, we're not too worried. What we worry about is if we both disappeared off the face of the earth and what would happen to the company. because my parents would be stuck being the executives of our will, which includes this quite large company to manage. So we've got quite an in-depth document which is already shared with them, which goes through everything. And quite a lot of people have previously asked me what's in the document. So I've created a kind of structure which I'm going to put on the notes, the description of this YouTube video afterwards. so you can see what's in it. And I'm not saying that's everything or that it's exhausted, but that's what I've found useful. And it goes through everything, like the day-to-day management, like if we just disappeared, what would you need to do in the next week to make sure people still get paid and things like that? Things like I've suggested that my next of kin nominate some of my team as directors so that there are people who know the company managing it actively in our absence. So we've actually suggested several people from the team to be nominated as directors if that happens. And there's legal stuff like my family, they don't even necessarily know the structure of the company and the legal side of it and how to get that information. They're like, yeah, they run some sort of web business. They don't necessarily know actually what it is that it's a formally incorporated company and all of that kind of thing. And then there's a list of all the assets like Zach mentioned a minute ago. And it's interesting when you list them that these are actually important both for your next of kin to get hold of these things and also as assets to increase the value if they decide to sell your company in the future. So it's not just things like bank accounts. It's also your domain names, your website, source code of your plugins, places like where you store your company files, your mailing list is probably quite a valuable asset. social media accounts, hopefully you have written processes. I know there will always be something that's only in your head and that's an ongoing battle thinking if I disappeared, nobody else would know this, I'd better write it down. But ideally you'd have all this written down and all of these are company assets that people need to know. But I actually disagree slightly with the two of you about the one pass because I don't think that matters. When somebody dies, there are formal processes to obtain access to their accounts. like the next of kin can apply to say PayPal to get access to a deceased person's accounts. And that applies to all major companies really. So what I've done in my document is instead of sharing the passwords now while Andy and I are still alive, we've put just the username of each account so that they can apply for access. And we felt that would be more secure in the short term. Although obviously with people you trust, you can share your one pass as well. and the final thing in my document is I've actually provided some really actionable stuff about if they wanted to sell the company. So I provided details of like brokers and individuals that buy WordPress companies and things like that. So. because they wouldn't know what to do. Like, how do you sell a company? And it's a very specific type of tech company. So I've actually given even things like email addresses of people I know that would help with that process and so on. So it's quite comprehensive. But the main thing is you kind of update it and make sure people know where it is if the worst happens. So link to it from your will, for example, give it to them now.

[00:17:39] Zack Katz: Yeah, in terms of the reason I share one password credentials instead of waiting for the process to go through the death. Built in death processes for like striking PayPal and stuff is that it that surely is not going to be a quick process as opposed to one password where they could gain immediate access if they needed to. So in in the. Yeah. Well, yeah, in the US death can take a long time.

[00:18:03] Carl Alexander: That's what I was gonna say.

[00:18:10] Katie Keith: Yeah, it probably will.

[00:18:11] Carl Alexander: It's the same in Canada. I was thinking the banks especially. The bank, it can take over a year for the whole process to get access to your bank, like bank accounts and things like that. It's really time consuming.

[00:18:26] Zack Katz: Katie, when you mentioned that you have in your document recommended team members who would take over, are those team members named in the document? Do they know whether not they're next in line for the crown?

[00:18:39] Katie Keith: No, they might kill me then.

[00:18:42] Zack Katz: Hahahaha

[00:18:44] Katie Keith: Actually, this is really recent. It was literally this weekend that Andy and I last updated it and because we're redoing our wills at the moment. Another thing, if you live abroad, we just discovered that we need a UK will and a Spanish will for our Spanish assets. So we're doing all of that at the moment in terms of our personal stuff. And at the same time, we're updating the business continuity document. And we decided we were thinking in more depth, what would my poor parents do if they had our company dumped on them? And they're not even the heirs because we have a daughter. They are just the poor executives that would have to do all the crap to arrange it all on behalf of our daughter, which seems really mean, actually. there you go. So we decided that for the day-to-day management, it would be helpful if they could nominate people that know the company. And we decided to nominate, give a selection because people might say no to this extra responsibility. So we've given a kind of few suggestions from marketing and a few from development because we thought that would replicate mine and Andy's skillset. We've always been very lucky at Barn too that we have a kind of a head with a marketing background and a head with technical background. And so we thought let's replicate that after we've gone by nominating two directors. But there's kind of a choice with a recommendation at the top of the list.

[00:20:11] Zack Katz: And do you give them extra money or anything with the additional responsibility? Does it say what to do in that regard?

[00:20:20] Katie Keith: Well, I wanted to put that in, suggesting that the executors would increase their pay. And Andy felt that was too much detail and that that's something they would work through with our accountant at the time, because we've advised them to work with the accountant because there's a formal process for nominating company directors in the UK, it being a UK company. So we thought we'll leave that at the time. And hopefully it's obvious to them that if you make someone a director, you give them a raise.

[00:20:51] Zack Katz: Yeah, in my experience with Wills, the more uncertainty there is, the worse it is. Like every single thing that could be answered probably should be answered and leave it, like still give people the ability to be flexible on that if it's something you think should be flexible. I would, if I don't have this provision in my company's continuity plan and I'm going to be adding it thanks to you. So thanks, Katie. But I will certainly propose that they get a temporary raise of, know, anything that's left up to court battles or anything that could be, could result in a lawsuit is always a good idea to, to try to think of that ahead of time and put that in the document so that you avoid any additional stress for your poor parents.

[00:21:42] Katie Keith: you Yeah, interesting.

[00:21:48] Carl Alexander: I really liked the comment about the selling. think that was like one thing when I started my company, I'd read so many disaster stories about like, not well, like separating all your earlier stuff for the company. So I find like, that already kind of prepares you because at least all the stuff is kind of well separated and easier to at least find.

[00:22:19] Zack Katz: What do mean, separated?

[00:22:21] Carl Alexander: Well, I think it was a Katie, Katie, that said, it's just, if you want to sell, you, don't want like, I it's really common for solo founders to like, just mix everything together. Like you don't get separate, like I created separate accounts for everything because it's, it's kind of like the same auditing process. If you try to sell a company, you have to go and document everything, but you also have to have everything well separated so that they can audit your books and audit everything and you can have a clean send off because otherwise you just end up with it's a mess to untangle. If you're using your personal Gmail to run a business or all that stuff, it's really messy. So I was lucky that that was already kind of taken care of. know, it's like it's own, the business has its own credit card. It has its own this. It's easier for somebody even that might not know as much to just come in and be like, okay, everything at least in one password is under like a specific team. like they know at least, okay, everything's on there. Just everything to just make it a bit easier. Cause like my parents aren't the most technical people. I've least made a product where it can keep running essentially indefinitely. So it'll be fine. They just have to pay the credit card. But it's good to have all these things separated because if they want to sell it, like you said, or try to get in process, it would be terrible for them to do that as well.

[00:24:15] Katie Keith: It's not a legal entity, so you're kind of working as a sole trader, as it were. I don't know what the legal terminology is in your country.

[00:24:26] Carl Alexander: No, no, Ymir is incorporated. It's like a Canadian incorporated business. okay. Yeah. So it's like, it's got its own, it doesn't have a trademark yet, but it's a named corporation in Canada. So it's got everything. It's just, that's why it needs, it's still, but it's still important to have all that. But that's another common mistake as well, right? You make it all under your name and then it's like, it's even... messy for whoever ends up with having to manage that.

[00:25:04] Zack Katz: One of the ways that I always find gaps in my documentation is to hire somebody, to bring somebody on board and try to explain how we work, what we do. So for product owners that are growing and starting to bring on people, when you're hiring people and you're explaining, this is how we do this, you go to Stripe and you enter this detail here to get this key, all that stuff should be written down on a doc. And I know it's a lot of work. but that's where the continuity plan can be comprised of. We want to hand off a sheath of paper and say, here's all our documentation for what you need to know to run this business. And if there are gaps, as you discover the gaps and you remember to update your thing, I have a calendar reminder every year to update my continuity plan, or every quarter even. Because when you bring on new people, when people leave, When their salaries change, I update that in the docs that people have an understanding of when they're inheriting their business, this is the state of the business. So when you bring on new people, that's a great opportunity to update all that information.

[00:26:21] Katie Keith: You know, one of the things I find challenging with writing this is what tone to strike, because this is written for loved ones after you've died. That's really scary. And I've gone for quite a matter of fact approach. But Zach, I remember reading yours a year or two and yours has some really nice, more emotional stuff in it. So I don't know what the right balance is. Do you want to talk a bit about where you were coming from in talking to your loved ones from beyond the grave?

[00:26:51] Zack Katz: Yeah, the touchy-feely stuff is really the opening cover page, as you would. It says, don't worry, everything will be fine. I love you. It's OK. You can do this. Here's what you need to do first. Because it's going to be emotional for whomever, even if they barely knew you.