[00:00:00] Amber Hinds: Many product founders started their plugin as a side project, either nights or weekends around their day job or as an additional revenue stream for their agency. But if you are ready to fully be fully product focused and want your product to fully support yourself or maybe even a team of folks, knowing how to scale.

[00:00:26] Getting that first 100 or maybe 1, 000 installs is easy, but going from 1, 000 to 10, 000 to 100, 000 or more, not so much. Developing strategies for scale is especially important if you think that you might want to let others run the business for you or maybe sell it someday. The more you can scale, the better.

[00:00:50] The larger your team can be to help spread out the work and the more appealing your business will be to buyers when you're ready to walk away.

[00:01:09] Matt Cromwell: Is WP Product Talk place where every week we bring you insights, product marketing, business management and growth, customer experience, product development, and more. It's your go to podcast for WordPress product owners by WordPress product donors, and now enjoy the show.

[00:01:35] Amber Hinds: Hi, I am Amber Hines from Equalize Digital and this is WP Product Talk. And today we are going to be talking about what having 10, 000 or more customers at the end of the year might do for your business. Or maybe 100, 000. Uh, we're going to be diving deep into rapid growth for WordPress plugins and Thieve businesses.

[00:01:56] We'll be discussing outside, accepting outside investment, marketing to international customers. Making your product work outside the WordPress ecosystem and more. If you're looking for strategies for scaling your product business, this is the episode for you. And today we have a great guest on joining me, Thomas Banchon.

[00:02:15] Thomas, welcome.

[00:02:17] Thomas Fanchin: Hey, nice to see you and nice to meet you too. I mean, uh, nice to meet everyone on the, on the live. Uh, it's super nice to be there.

[00:02:27] Amber Hinds: We are really excited to have you and unfortunately our co-host Matt, um, just had a bunch of things going on and it didn't work. But I am excited that you and I are going to get to chat and of course I got ahead of myself on my intro there, , but you know, that always happens when we change things up, who's doing what, but I'm excited to have you, for people who are not familiar with you, Thomas, can you give a little bit of an, an introduction?

[00:02:53] Thomas Fanchin: Yes, sure. Uh, I'm Thomas. I work as we look partnership manager. So I overlook all our integration partnerships. So we've CMS is like a WordPress Shopify, but also Squarespace Webflow weeks. And also our partnership with, uh, hosting providers, theme, page builders, uh, apps, plug in. Uh, also try to be as active as possible inside all of the communities where we are, uh, currently involved.

[00:03:26] So in WordPress, for example, where we do a lot of initiatives and I've been doing it for the past five years and I'm still loving it. Yep, that's me.

[00:03:41] Amber Hinds: Well, welcome. We're really glad to have you on the show. And I think that there's a lot of interesting things that Wiglot is doing. Um, and, you know, both inside and outside of WordPress.

[00:03:52] So I'm excited to dive into that. We always like to start off by talking about why this topic matters. Why is this important? And I shared a little bit about that before we kicked off, right? Maybe someone is thinking about, they want to sell their business, you know, what their long term plan is, or maybe they just want to know that.

[00:04:13] Hey, I don't want to be the one who has to do all the work here. And so scale is what supports growth and being able to have bigger goals with your businesses, which is why I really think this topic is important for, um, product owners is they need to be able to think about those things. I I'm curious what you think.

[00:04:31] Why do you think product owners need to be thinking about scaling?

[00:04:36] Thomas Fanchin: Overall, if you think about, uh, having long term success and having sustainability inside of your team, your product, but also overall about like the product itself, the culture. Uh, inside of your company, uh, I think it's your go to topic.

[00:04:57] Amber Hinds: Yeah. So I think, um, if we're really thinking about that sustainability, the long term growth, that sort of stuff. Um, I'd love to hear more about the background that you have, your experience, you know, over time and just any other takeaways from Wiglot. So maybe you can start and kick us off on a little bit of your personal experience, um, on scaling.

[00:05:25] Thomas Fanchin: Yeah. So we originally launched Wigglot, uh, during WorldCamp Paris. Uh, so it was a plugin 2016. But the idea that both of the owners had was, uh, to have a product that you can use regardless of the technology that you are using and, uh, it needs to be, uh, Easy to set up and easy to use. Uh, and so they launched it on Shopify afterwards, which was our second integration and, uh, we've got vision in mind.

[00:06:05] Then they start to improve a product, uh, to set up like that initial goal. And to have it now, uh, available on any website on the market. So if you, you can use, we got on any CMS, uh, on the market today. Uh, so from a product perspective, we went from a plugin to now an app that you can use on anything, really, even on a custom website.

[00:06:34] Um, if you look at the team now. Uh, five years ago, uh, when I started we were 10 mm-Hmm. . There were no sales team. Uh, and now we are 50. Uh, we have a sales team with us who are working, uh, and, uh, uh, making sure that we have like these big brands that are also using us. And, um. We also have more and more people.

[00:07:04] Uh, customer team is like the biggest team that we have inside of the company.

[00:07:09] Amber Hinds: Uh,

[00:07:11] Thomas Fanchin: yes, support. Exactly. Uh, our support team, everyone is based in Paris, so, uh, we are all in France. Um, and, um, yeah, um, we experienced like. These changes gradually from the product side, the team side of things to, uh, inside of a marketing tool, uh, team, uh, we've, uh, go from a team to, from, uh, to, uh, we were two in the beginning, I think.

[00:07:41] Uh, and now, uh, we are almost, I think, I think seven or eight, maybe I'm forgetting about someone, but I'm not sure. Um, and yes, so that might be.

[00:07:53] Amber Hinds: That first team of 10 people that had two engineers on it, you're saying, and then sales people. No, what was the first team of 10?

[00:08:01] Thomas Fanchin: Yeah, that was like, uh, uh, people from marketing.

[00:08:05] So we were two, two marketing people, uh, no sales team, uh, our founders. So, uh, Amy and Augusta. So, uh, Augusta was focused. On the marketing side of things too. So we were free inside of a marketing team. Remy, uh, was more focused and he's still focused on the product side of we got is our CTO. That was like, uh, two of a day, one working, uh, on WordPress and another one, uh, working on Shopify.

[00:08:38] And, uh, trying to work on the new, like a project that is going to change everything and have like an app that you can install it everywhere. Uh, and then there were maybe three or five people from the support team. So that was about it. And there was also like. Two people inside of a product team, but more working on the admin side of things, the product, the dashboard, because everything, all your translation are stored inside of, uh, uh, the CMS, uh, uh, we regret, but it's stored outside.

[00:09:16] So we have a dashboard that we need to maintain. And so there were two people fully focused on that. So, and out of these 10 people, only one left the company. That's amazing that everyone has stayed.

[00:09:32] Amber Hinds: Yeah.

[00:09:32] Thomas Fanchin: We are still there and, and, and we are super happy to see the growth of the company and more people coming.

[00:09:40] And, and yeah, it's amazing.

[00:09:44] Amber Hinds: Yeah. So I think that amazing growth, part of one of the things that you did do, I know along the way was you brought in some outside investors, I'm curious. If you what you can share and I don't know how much you know about all of this right from a background perspective What that decision was like and how that helped scale user adoption at all.

[00:10:08] Thomas Fanchin: Yeah actually, we are super Lucky at we got because both of the founders are super transparent And, uh, they told us everything about the partnership, uh, but they are built and the new investors coming. Uh, the good thing is that we were already experiencing growth, so it didn't have an impact on the team.

[00:10:36] It was like regular. Business like we keep on doing what we were doing best. We just try to replicate it and doing more. Uh, the initial goal that we had in 2021 prior to, uh, doing, uh, uh, uh, having like investors was, uh, to multiple by five, uh, our result in the next five years. And it was already there, and it's still today the same objective, and we are still all working on it, except that now we have a little bit more people on the project, which is super nice for us.

[00:11:19] Amber Hinds: So, it doesn't sound like we got, quote, needed. To raise money. Right. It wasn't an emergency. Like if we don't raise money, we're going to have to close or we're gonna have to lay people off. It was more of like a comfort kind of thing, or like we want to be able to grow more, but it's not an emergency. Is that right?

[00:11:38] Thomas Fanchin: Yeah. It was more like what are the next move and, uh, uh, finding the right partners who are going to align with the company culture and we've found those vision. They were lucky enough to, to, to find it, uh, so, yeah.

[00:12:01] Amber Hinds: Yeah. I know we internally, like we have done a very small, nothing like what Big Lot has raised, pre seed round.

[00:12:09] And we had a lot of those same conversations, but for us, it was a little different because we weren't product focused yet. We're still very much in our early days. So it's like, we're making all of our money off services. But we want to be able to invest in the product and you know, how do we hire a full time person to work on that?

[00:12:27] Okay, we need other dollars. We need someone to pay for that, right? If it's not a customer. So it's interesting to hear perspective from the other side, which is we already had customers. We already, I mean, you probably might've already felt like you achieved product market fit. Like you knew that people were talking about it, they were buying it.

[00:12:44] And then you were using the investment to accelerate that as opposed to, Trying to explore what that was in the beginning, which is what we are.

[00:12:51] Thomas Fanchin: Yeah. Yeah. Which was, I think also the reason why, like, it was, at first it was really product focused. Mm-Hmm. . So we had the product team, customer support, marketing, but no sales team yet.

[00:13:05] And uh, the goal was, uh, to have people to onboard the project easily and to use it by themself. And it was more like. Inside of a marketing team, trying to create awareness and strong foundation to make sure that the product is recognized and people, uh, the only funnel of acquisition was like, uh, marketing.

[00:13:30] And, uh, um, yeah, then, uh, slowly, like, uh, the project is more and more robust and you start to have the sales team and you start to acquire new customer. And, and even now, for example, uh, uh, we just, uh, open a new position and someone from the team is actually Who were there like, uh, five years ago is now taking a new position instead of a company and she's going to be a head of customer success.

[00:13:59] So she's going to work, uh, more with, uh, our customer, but it's just like slowly making sure, like taking baby steps and now we are, uh, at that level of commitment. Yeah.

[00:14:11] Amber Hinds: Well, that head of customer success is, is the idea of adding that role that it's gonna help with like retention?

[00:14:18] Thomas Fanchin: Yeah. Uh, basically we have, uh, uh, uh, uh, a good volume of SMBs, uh, coming, uh, naturally, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, on the product.

[00:14:33] And the goal is to make sure that everyone is well embodied and that if they need anything or any partners need any help, uh, uh, uh, during these onboardings, uh, uh, to make sure that they have someone, uh, inside of a company who can add them. And yeah, I think it's just, uh, The next level of customer support.

[00:14:57] Amber Hinds: Yeah. So I want to, I know I have some other questions, but I want to dive a little bit more into the sales. Cause I do think from a scaling perspective, making the leap from what you were talking about, having just a marketing team to having a sales team is, is really key on actually being able to scale.

[00:15:15] And, and I'm curious on your sales team, are they doing a lot of, Cold outreach and those sorts of techniques or are they just inbound sales and responding to inquiries?

[00:15:27] Thomas Fanchin: It depends they are doing both. We are lucky to have a lot of inbound A lot of people actually reach out to us, but it's because the marketing team and the sales team work together So we build strong foundation in the beginning And, uh, thanks to, uh, uh, content, uh, the content team and everything that we are putting out there, a lot of people discover the tool thanks to the marketing team.

[00:15:54] And then we pass the ball to the, uh, sales teams who are, uh, onboarding the customer, making the calls, making sure that, uh, they are aligned with the product, they know what it is, they know, uh, uh, uh, how to implement it. Then. Uh, making sure that it's a win for everyone.

[00:16:13] Amber Hinds: Yeah, so I'm curious. Um, we so we have my partner, Chris does some sales and we are sort of starting to explore some of the cold outreach, but mostly he does all the inbound sales responding.

[00:16:27] But we've been trying to identify internally within our organization. What the, what that threshold is of revenue from a customer where it makes sense to have them get a phone call or zoom calls or meetings. Right. And like that personalized, like you're talking about that onboarding, um, kind of white glove touch versus the, no, you should just go buy it off the website.

[00:16:50] I'm not like, it's not worth the time. Right. Like, I feel like there's a, a revenue threshold and I'm wondering if you have anything like that outlined, um, within Wiglot or how you handled that.

[00:17:02] Thomas Fanchin: I don't know if I can share any, uh, um, uh, stats or numbers about it,

[00:17:08] Amber Hinds: but,

[00:17:09] Thomas Fanchin: uh, uh, what I can say is that even if, uh, today you are, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, someone that is using our plugin for free, you will have like customer support and people from the team to actually onboard you and help you.

[00:17:24] So there is not a real limitation in terms of onboarding process. Uh, you will get that. But it's just like the sales teams are more focused on, uh, mid market right now. And, of course, enterprise level leads. Uh, with big brands who need like, you know, they have their IT team and everything. And we have like, uh, uh, uh, massive teams.

[00:17:48] We have behind them a legal team and need to make sure that they have everything. Then it requires a little bit more, uh, uh, uh, uh, than, uh, uh, what we do in the support team, but it's also like, uh, the same thing. Uh, I, we are always trying to create the balance. So the support team may help of a technical side of thing and on board, like the more the it people and the project team to may help, uh, on the integration and the sales team will work on the deal.

[00:18:22] Uh, making sure that, uh, uh, uh, we have all the information that's needed, the legal, the legal thing, like all the legal documents and all this stuff, but can take some time, ages. So it's more like, uh, uh, on their end.

[00:18:37] Amber Hinds: Yeah.

[00:18:38] Thomas Fanchin: And of course,

[00:18:39] Amber Hinds: yeah, we, we do. I don't, I don't want to say like, when I say like, we're trying to figure out what the line is.

[00:18:45] Like, I don't think we ignore our free users. We, you know, we're early. So we spend a lot of time talking to our free users because we're still trying to learn a lot from them. But I do think there's, it is something that probably a product owner has to think about is, you know, as you're figuring out staffing and you've hit scale, right?

[00:19:03] So it's probably a little bit easier to when you have more people to spread out some of that work. So I think it's interesting, but, um, and then, yeah, as you said, in my experience, the enterprise things. Um, I mean, NASA, we did that one. I mean, I feel like we talked to them for more than a year before they, we ever got any money.

[00:19:25] Thomas Fanchin: It's the same, like even on the partner side of things, I'm more managing the partnerships. It's the exact same thing when you're, uh, dealing with like big companies, sometimes it can take like one year and I'm lucky because I'm working like since the past five years that we got to see sometimes like some deals that we started like maybe like three years ago, four years ago, but are now making, we are now closing it.

[00:19:51] So it's the same. Sometimes it can take like a long, long, long period of time to have everything aligned, uh, uh, to make it happen.

[00:20:01] Amber Hinds: And there can be a lot of people on those bigger deals. That's, I mean, that's the other thing that I've noticed. Like we, we've been talking for a few weeks with a very large company in the United States.

[00:20:11] And the first call, like someone just booked a call, um, with, uh, My partner, Chris, and then he's like, Oh, this is going to be big. Maybe you should come too. And I was like, okay, fine. And then I showed up and there were like 20 people from the company on that. And I was like, I have never been on one where there were this many people.

[00:20:29] Most of them just listened and had their cameras off. you know, but it's like nobody wanted to get secondhand information, I guess. So everybody so, um, so I, I want to transition into a little bit and I feel like maybe this is a really good area for you talking about part of scaling is leaving your own country.

[00:20:52] Um, right. When you Grow bigger. You're frequently getting customers from around the world. And I'm wondering how, what challenges maybe you all have experienced on that front and what you think needs to be considered as businesses are growing internationally.

[00:21:08] Thomas Fanchin: Um, first, like, because of the product itself.

[00:21:12] So we always add like, but international user base, because our goal is like for people to go international, yeah. Translation, of course. So you have that international user base from the beginning. And for us, it was more, uh, uh, of course, uh, firstly, uh, breaking the language barrier. So, um, if you look at our website, it's translated in maybe six languages, uh, Japanese, uh, French, uh, Spanish, uh, Dutch, and I don't, I forgot like the two others, but yeah, translated in six, uh, languages, uh, and, of course,

[00:21:57] Amber Hinds: Are you selecting the languages to translate to because it's a market you want to go to or are you waiting until you get some number of customers there first?

[00:22:06] Thomas Fanchin: No, it's, it depends. It's a mix of both. There is go to markets and there are also markets where we are really strong. So it's a mix of, uh, uh, both. And so first of all, like, yes, translating your website, because of course, like people, if we had our website in the beginning in French and people from the UK From Spain or wherever they are start to look at your your product and we don't understand it then it's a no.

[00:22:35] So the first ever was that. Um, Then, uh, of course we need to communicate about, uh, uh, the product with our users, which means like our support team had to be multi lingual too. So all the support team is based in France, but they all speak English. And, uh, they mainly, uh, uh, speak with our users in English.

[00:23:00] We have some Spanish speakers too. And at one point we have Korean too, which was, uh, uh, uh, fun. So if you're looking like for. I mean, if you are talking to customers, uh, uh, for example, if someone is Korean and you can speak to someone in Korean, it's like the perfect match. And it build a lot of stress too.

[00:23:20] Uh mm-Hmm. , uh, beyond the product to know that there are people behind it and not just bots, and you are just here on the forum and no one is answering. So, uh, uh, uh, yeah. And then, uh, there was also even on, on the partnership side, I mean, uh, 99%. Of, uh, but the day I speak English and maybe like the rest of the time is in French.

[00:23:47] Uh, but even like for team meetings, we, we, we speak in English because we have English speakers, uh, uh, uh, in, uh, the office too. And on more on the marketing side of things, uh, we also, uh, needed to, to localize, uh, the marketing. So our assets, uh, the content, uh, but also we hired people from local, uh, communities like, uh, we did a push, uh, in Japan.

[00:24:19] Uh, because there was like, uh, the Olympic games there, but it didn't happen because of the COVID. But, uh, uh, we had like, uh, two of, two freelancers, uh, working, uh, for us who became ambassadors and now still represent us in, in events. And, uh, yeah, you need to be sure, like, for example, in Japan, it's not, I mean, it's possible.

[00:24:42] I've tried even myself in the past to make like partnerships, uh, uh, uh, with people, uh, uh, in Japan. But it's way easier if you can speak, uh, Japanese and uh, uh, uh, understand like the culture and uh, uh, uh, the community there too. So if you are someone who is there and you can speak about the brain and, uh, make sure that, uh, it aligns on your.

[00:25:09] Company culture, because it's always what we look for and then you can make it happen.

[00:25:15] Amber Hinds: Yeah, so I think it's probably, you know, you were talking about translating content, but this like localizing is maybe a step beyond that, right? Because there's translating content literally into another language. And then there's things like, On the Spanish version of this website or the Japanese version of this website, we're going to use stock photos with Asian people instead of, right.

[00:25:38] Or something like that. Or like maybe they say culturally, this thing is going to be way more important in this country. And so we want to adjust how we're talking about our product in order to better appeal to that market. Is that how that sounds?

[00:25:51] Thomas Fanchin: Yeah. Uh, uh, uh, basically. Um, as we are using, we got on our website, so it's, we are the one powering the transition, which is absolutely normal.

[00:26:02] It would be, uh, uh, we are, if we don't use, we don't use your translation,

[00:26:11] but, uh, yeah, uh, um, we, we, we do all the multi lingual SEO part of a website is done automatically. Because of a product. Uh, so all the hash reference tags are, uh, we have unique and dedicated URS and all of this stuff. But, uh, uh, uh, uh, with that, we also need to, to, to have like, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, some. Local people who overlook the translation and make sure that it aligns.

[00:26:41] We have a content team too inside of the company who make sure that it aligns with the search queries. We have the right keywords and we are targeting the right thing in the right country. So there is all that. Uh, work to that has been done. And today, uh, I mean, uh, five years ago, it was, uh, uh, uh, uh, the content team, like the content was doing a lot of acquisition.

[00:27:04] And today is still bringing a lot of acquisition. I would say teams, we go on calls and a lot of time, uh, uh, the feedback is like, yes, I discovered, uh, your tool, uh, uh, searching for a transition solution. Uh, uh, we have this article or looking at, uh, Uh, uh, this content and, uh, uh, uh, it's really nice because we make sure that we share with each other those feedbacks because it's nice for the team to hear that the work that we are putting in, uh, uh, uh, it's actually, uh, working and yeah.

[00:27:41] Amber Hinds: Yeah. So I'm curious, how do you see the, the jump on that, you know, because a newer product owner might be thinking, obviously, what you're talking about is you have a team of 50 people, right? You've gotten to a point where you have enough people to, you know, know, check translations or someone who lives in a certain country and knows the culture.

[00:28:04] Like what is, what does that, that growth look like? And how do you get to the point where, you know, okay, now we need to bring someone in, in that country. Obviously there's a revenue threshold, right? Where, you know, you can financially support that growth, but are there other things? that need to happen first in the organization to make that possible.

[00:28:24] Thomas Fanchin: Um, it's, I mean, 50 people, it sounds like a big company, but it's still like, because a lot of people with like, uh, I mean, on the same, Uh, uh, a scale where we are would hire, uh, 100, uh, people and we would have like 250 people with working. Uh, uh, a lot of people would've, uh, uh, uh, done that. We've seen also a lot of companies doing that.

[00:28:57] Uh, as soon as they got an investment, they start to hire tons of people, but it's not part of the company culture. , uh, uh, the goal is, uh, uh, to keep, uh, uh, uh, a, a small team. And when there is a real need, uh, to have someone new, uh, uh, in the team, then we think about it. We talk, uh, about it with, uh, uh, uh, uh, the, the managers with everyone, with our CEO, we make sure that it aligns and there is really.

[00:29:32] that need. And then we go through the recruitment process and everything. If I took me as an example, five years ago, I was working on events. The partnerships and on the community, uh, which is like really, really, uh, huge. It's basically, uh, uh, two or three people jobs, uh, by myself. And at some point, uh, with the growth of events, we started to do more, more, more, more, and more.

[00:30:03] I think. Maybe 100 events in one year or something like that. We were like, okay, maybe there is a need to bring someone in. We discussed about it, uh, uh, with the founders and, uh, uh, we recruited, uh, uh, an event manager who is now part of a team. And he's doing all the heavy lifting in terms of events, coordination, organization.

[00:30:26] We just did our community day. Uh, it's a day where, uh, we bring our ambassadors, uh, in France. Uh, so they were there, uh, uh, yesterday and, uh, today, uh, this morning. And, uh, um, Actually, like two days ago, I was thinking because like, you know, always in very search events and you have a workshops and everything, you start to think a lot about, uh, representation, what you are doing.

[00:30:54] And I thought I'm super happy because, uh, uh, I didn't have nothing to do in terms of organization. Uh, everything was, So you just had to show up and someone else had done it all for you. I just, I just had to show up, do the workshop, talk about my work and uh, make sure that everyone is happy and uh, uh, have like fruitful discussion with everyone.

[00:31:20] Of course there is preparation for the workshops and everything that we do and there is like multiple, uh, uh, other things to do, but it's still like, uh, super nice to be able to just Show up and I don't have to worry about like hotel rooms or, uh, uh,

[00:31:36] Amber Hinds: food

[00:31:37] Thomas Fanchin: or a restaurant. Yeah, exactly. It's like, uh, yeah,

[00:31:41] Amber Hinds: I do think so.

[00:31:42] Events for us has, has really helped us with our growth. Uh, the webinars that we do, especially, um, we run two webinars a month for WordPress accessibility meetup, and then we. I, I, and sometimes my partners speak either at in person at WordCamps or higher ed conferences or other events. And so that has been really helpful, but I will say like one of the best things was, um, our current content specialist, Paula, when she joined the team and she took over a WordPress accessibility meetup twice a month.

[00:32:15] Like she does all the organizing and I just show up. It's, it's sometimes I'll go out and help find speakers, but she does all the coordination. She like gets their bios and their descriptions and she creates all the graphics and does all the social. And I'm like, wow, it is so nice when you have a team member that can do that for you.

[00:32:32] Thomas Fanchin: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's really interesting.

[00:32:35] Amber Hinds: So, um, you mentioned earlier when you were doing your introduction, uh, that We got started as a WordPress plugin and then expanded into Shopify and now it's totally CMS agnostic and you can use it anywhere. Uh, and I'm curious because to me, I know this is something we've talked about with our own product, eventually having a goal of not just being a WordPress plugin.

[00:32:57] And I do see that. think for being able to have scale, having a bigger market is really helpful. And if you aren't locked into one specific platform, then there is a lot more flexibility and ability to grow. Uh, so I'm wondering what recommendations you might have for product owners that want to make their products work outside of WordPress.

[00:33:17] Thomas Fanchin: Um, it's a difficult question because it depends a lot on the product. And, uh, since the beginning, we had like a vision of like, Being like the number one translation solution for the web, uh, regardless of, uh, technology, but you're using, you should be able to use widget and use it easily. Uh, and

[00:33:45] Amber Hinds: sort of incidental that it started in WordPress, like their goal from the beginning.

[00:33:48] Yes.

[00:33:50] Thomas Fanchin: WordPress is because obviously it's a really, really huge market. Uh, and actually the owners, um, Both of the, the, the co founders, uh, uh, they went to, uh, uh, the WordPress, the WordPress event because they thought like, yes, there is a market there. And we started to interact with the community. And everyone was so, uh, happy and giving them feedbacks and happy to share, uh, uh, tips about like, uh, uh, uh, the product, uh, Uh, the ecosystem and so they were like, okay, it's, uh, it's, uh, it confirmed the idea, but it's a go to, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, market.

[00:34:35] And it's why, uh, originally it was launched, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, on WordPress, but yeah, um, yeah, it's tricky, but. Couple of thoughts about it. Um, the first thing that you need to make sure is that your product align with, with whatever ecosystem or technology, uh, but you're targeting because each, uh, uh, CMS or each ecosystem is really different.

[00:35:05] So you need to make sure that you align your messaging. So marketing, everything your team to internally, but they need to, to, to know about, uh, uh, uh, uh, that ecosystem and your integration that you are, uh, uh, planning to do, because obviously people are going to, uh, send messages to the support team. Maybe they have questions, maybe they try the product and they have an issue.

[00:35:27] So, uh, uh, there is a big. Uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, part of like, uh, making sure that it's visible inside of a company too, for everyone. And, uh, as long as you have like the messaging, right, the project photos and the team too, and everything is aligned, I think it should go smoothly.

[00:35:50] Amber Hinds: Um, are there things. Um, so obviously messaging things, uh, I don't know how much you can talk about like on the decision points on for like a product.

[00:36:03] Cause I know you said it depends on the product. Um, you know, so for example, I know for us, we've talked about what would probably make sense is for us to have a Shopify integration, because a lot of the accessibility complaints on the internet, um, Are against e commerce websites and e commerce is a really natural place where we want to make sure everyone can buy products, even including people with disabilities.

[00:36:29] So for us, like that, that is an area where we're like, okay, you know, maybe that would make sense to do that. And I'm wondering broadly, if there's something that product owners, if they're not sure about this for themselves, like, does it make sense for me to not WordPress? Are there kinds of questions that maybe they would want to ask them?

[00:36:47] Thomas Fanchin: The best thing is actually, uh, uh, to try to interact with the ecosystem of, uh, uh, uh, the product of a CMS where, uh, you're trying to, to, to, to learn your product. So let's say if tomorrow you want to go to Shopify, you can reach out to us as we are on Shopify, reach out to other partners. Uh, uh, well, On Shopify, just to learn a little bit more about the ecosystem, uh, see if it's really a good fit for you.

[00:37:19] Because maybe after a couple of conversations with people from that ecosystem, you're going to be, okay, it's not a go to for me. I don't want to do that. Uh, uh, it's not a part of the project vision. And, uh, there is also like the, the, the compatibility aspect of it. You need to make sure that, because. You can go anywhere.

[00:37:43] If you go on Shopify, you have tons of talk about the integration, everything that you need to do to be in the marketplace. So you need to make sure that your WordPress plugin can adapt itself to the Shopify marketplace, which is different. And if you can have both, Uh, then it's fine and you need also to figure out because it's also going to take you a lot of time to maintain maybe two products.

[00:38:10] One on, one on WordPress, one on Shopify. Do you have like everything to be able to have like these two, uh, uh, plug in and apps and to, to maintain the same level of support, the same level of marketing, the same level of, of product ownership, uh, uh, but you actually have right now on WordPress on another.

[00:38:31] Uh, uh, um, integration.

[00:38:35] Amber Hinds: Yep. Yeah. And I think that's a good point. And just because you have a support team, that's really good at answering troubleshooting questions on WordPress does not mean that they would know. I mean, I would, I would not be able to answer any question about why is this thing not working on my Shopify site?

[00:38:49] Cause I've never used it. So I would be like, I don't know. Um, and I think, you know, one of the things we've discussed internally as well is just that literal. Do you have the skill set or do you have people on your team that have the skill set? Because if you're talking about, like, with us, we've had conversations about storing data, um, not on the sites, right?

[00:39:12] Like, currently we store all of our scans in the WordPress database. We have custom database tables and all that kind of stuff. But there are a lot of use cases where it might make sense for it actually to be functioning more like a SAS or a headless kind of implementation where the, the data is not stored in their website and it just served back to their website.

[00:39:33] Um, but then, you know, we have discussions about, okay, well, we're really great WordPress developers. We've never built like an AW. No, it doesn't mean we can't figure it out. Right. We certainly maybe could, but then it's, or we're like, or maybe we need to hire somebody who's already done this. Right. So I think those are the kinds of questions too, that you want to think about as a product owner.

[00:39:55] Um, you know, when you're looking to scale or go beyond where you currently are is, you know, what's your capacity? How much time would it take and you know, the dollars amount that you might need to invest in order to make it happen. Cause you're right. There's a lot of little things you don't think about like the support piece.

[00:40:12] I mean, you said that it made total sense to me, but I, I hadn't even thought of that before, but it's like, yeah, just cause I know how to answer a support question. WordPress is not, I mean, I'll be able to answer it for like Google or Joomla or something. Right.

[00:40:26] Um, so I think another way that a lot of times we scale and we have, we've had conversations about this, like scale is scaling is very much a matter sometimes of just getting in front of a lot of people and there's a marketing aspect to it, um, you know, with content creation and all of that. But I do think another ways that you can rapidly sell is through partnerships and getting in front of other organizations.

[00:40:52] Audiences, um, or setting something up, maybe whether it's an affiliate or a revenue sharing situation or that kind of thing. And I'm curious, uh, how partnerships have played a role in OTT scaling. Mm-Hmm. ,

[00:41:06] Thomas Fanchin: uh, today we are a team of three inside of, uh, partnership, uh, uh, uh, team up with that. So, uh, there is an agency partnership manager.

[00:41:18] There is someone who is in charge of the resellers. And, uh, I'm the one in charge of, uh, more of a decontamination and, uh, we'd like to see MSS and the other partners and, uh, uh, we always aim for the long term partnerships. So it's why we, what we try, uh, uh, uh, uh, to do every time. Uh, it also helps like, uh, you can see on the website that there is different integration and sometime, uh, some specific, uh, condition to be able to, uh, I don't know, like specific features, uh, to be able to, Uh, have anything that you want on the website, maybe a session and so on.

[00:42:04] And, uh, but also add to shape the product, the way that it is on different integration, which is also a way of, uh, scaling and, uh, for sure. Like there is a, uh, a business aspect of it where, uh, when we do like, uh, partnerships and we are aligned at a hundred percent with. A partner and we are sure that is going to be a win for in both ends, uh, either from the future side of things or more for the, uh, uh, uh, on the business side of things to, uh, it allows us to discover a new market, a new ecosystem to, uh, have more signups, um, have more customers to, uh, we do have, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, for our partners.

[00:42:56] We also do have in your shares. And yeah, the resellers, they basically buy from Welo and then they sell it, uh, uh, uh, to, uh, uh, their customer base. Their customer, yeah. Which is a little bit different. Uh, and yeah, so, and the agency is also like completely different. And, uh, we have, uh, Tebow with our agency partnership manager who is, uh, the best, uh, and who knows everything about it.

[00:43:25] But, uh, yeah, it's also a completely different game. And so for sure, like, yeah, really able to shape, uh, the product in different ecosystem. And also, uh, uh, on a business level to, uh, today we are seeing more and more, uh, uh, uh, customers coming from, uh, uh, uh, uh, Um, other CMSs, which are not, uh, WordPress or Shopify, but, uh, it's getting, uh, bigger by number, which is nice.

[00:43:59] Uh, but WordPress is still, uh, uh, the number one right now. Uh, and there is still like so much to do, uh, from WordPress because it's so big and there is so many people, so many users. So, uh, we can still have a lot of fun, uh, uh, uh, there, which is nice. And, uh, uh, yeah.

[00:44:20] Amber Hinds: I'm curious of all the different types of partnerships that you have, which one did you all start putting effort into first?

[00:44:29] Thomas Fanchin: Yeah, in the beginning we were doing a lot of integration. It's, uh, yeah, it was the go to. In

[00:44:40] Amber Hinds: retrospect, do you feel like that was the best way? Like if, if, if a product owner only has time to focus on one kind of partnership, is that what you would say? Do that first.

[00:44:51] Thomas Fanchin: I mean, depends again on the product and on the team that you have.

[00:44:58] I was the one leading like the integration and doing everything. So, which was quite interesting. The thing is that, uh, at Wiglock we have this, um, like it's in our DNA to, multiple thing and to try a lot of, uh, uh, uh, uh, initiatives. And when we see that something is working. Then we take baby step and we try to replicate it, but we try to keep on growing on that thing that is working.

[00:45:33] So it's kind of what, uh, the vision of like, uh, the company and how we do things. So. Um, I would say it really depends on the product. And plus, as I said, like, as we were, like, there was this vision of being agnostic in the beginning, uh, then it's easier for you to, I don't know, maybe tomorrow I'm going to see something new, but it's going to be super interesting.

[00:46:02] And I think that there is a good, it's a good to market. There is a, something to be done there. And with the product itself right now, I can have like a first initial version of the integration without having to talk with product team or anyone. And I can just reach out to the partners and start to have this discussion to, you know, Understand a little bit more if it's a yes or no, and then take the decision like through time to see if it's a win or not.

[00:46:34] And if we should invest more in it. So yeah, depends on the product, uh, depends of, uh, uh, uh, your vision at the moment, uh, uh, do you want to, to, to test it all or, uh, uh, uh, um, Maybe not. Maybe you can like just have a look at the ecosystem. What are people doing? What is working? What is not working? There is a lot of sort of, uh, analysis that you need to do, uh, prior to just, uh, reaching out to someone or trying to set up a partnership that was also like, I think we did a lot of integration, but Before doing those integration, we did a lot, a lot of analysis to see what was working and what exactly, then we were like, okay, uh, these might be good ideas, uh, because of this set of, uh, uh, uh, uh, rules that we have set up.

[00:47:31] Maybe we can try it. So we try for, uh, uh, we have a couple of, uh, uh, uh, partners, and then if something is working, we try to replicate it. If not, uh, we just stop it. It's a bad idea. I think it's the goal of every, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, team or, uh, uh, uh, uh, people inside of company, you want to try a lot of things and to make sure that you find that sweet spot.

[00:47:57] And once you find it, then you go, uh, uh, uh, in there. Go deep on it.

[00:48:01] Amber Hinds: Yeah. Well, this has been a really great conversation. We always like to end with our best advice on scaling in this instance for new product owners. So Thomas, what's your best advice?

[00:48:16] Thomas Fanchin: Yeah. Um, I think the number one, uh, would be to always make sure to test everything.

[00:48:23] As I just said, uh, don't wait a lot of time to, because if you have an idea, uh, even if it's, uh, uh, going to take you, like, you think it's trouble, you think there's going to be issues you should. Think about it and then try it out, uh, uh, because you never know if it's going to be a win or not. And you can think about it for ages and nothing happen.

[00:48:47] Uh, or just try it. And if it's an issue, then it's a no. If not, then let's, then let's just, uh, keep on doing it. Um, also, uh, there is something that I love to say. Uh. Uh, and I said it, uh, during the podcast, take a baby steps, start small, uh, um, and then if you see that there is a win again, invest more sources, uh, try to replicate, try to do more, um, make sure that there is no friction inside of your team, especially if you are growing a team.

[00:49:25] Uh, so you need to make sure that everyone is aligned, but there is communication. Uh, during the podcast I've talked about, uh, uh, the balance between the marketing team and the sales team, which is super important because we're working closely and together, but it's also the same, uh, uh, with the partner team, the product team, the support team, the market team, the sales team.

[00:49:45] So we need to make sure that everyone, uh, uh, collaborating, yeah, collaborate is aligned. And the key for that is visibility. So the more visibility, uh, you give, uh, to everyone, uh, on your team about what you are doing on a personal level, but also, uh, on the broader level. So, uh, uh, the beta it is. Because everyone can understand, uh, uh, what you are doing.

[00:50:12] And let's say tomorrow, someone reach out to our support team and talk about partnership. They know, okay. Uh, is one, uh, uh, to be talking, uh, with, so I'm going to send an intro to tomorrow. So. Uh, this is like a simple example, but there is multiple of, uh, uh, uh, things that I could say, uh, uh, uh, uh, and give you like, oh, by example, but yeah,

[00:50:37] Amber Hinds: I think that's a good,

[00:50:38] Thomas Fanchin: yeah.

[00:50:38] Amber Hinds: Yeah. So I, so my best advice and, and I will fully admit, like we're in small land. We, we were very excited, you know, to break the 3000 active installs. So we have not totally scaled yet, but I think the thing that, that that we are trying to figure out really is how to fully identify the problem we're solving and communicating that to the right people in the market.

[00:51:07] Because I think that is when you, once you hit that is when companies start to see like based on all the podcasts I've listened to and all the things I've read and everything like that. And so I would say if someone is in the same boat as me, That's probably what you need to focus on is making your product really great.

[00:51:25] And then figuring out how to communicate it to the people whose problem you are solving. And have money that want to spend.

[00:51:37] So, well, it has been fabulous having you here with me. Um, great conversation and I loved everything you've had to share. Thomas, do you want to share? I'm sorry. I should have said tomorrow where people can find you online. If they're interested in getting.

[00:51:54] Thomas Fanchin: Yeah, sure. So if anyone wants to get in touch, uh, I have a LinkedIn profile.

[00:51:59] So feel free to reach out to me there. It's just, my name is written just here. Just add me, send me a message. I'm always happy to talk to anyone about partnerships, Weglot, multilingual, international, uh, expansion, SEO. Anything that you want, I'm happy to.

[00:52:21] Amber Hinds: Well, wonderful. Thank you so much. So for everyone who is watching, thank you for watching.

[00:52:26] Please tune in next week and our co host or my co host Zach Katz and Matt Cromwell will be back to discuss why your plugin needs to follow WordPress coding standards with Yoast Devolk. We want to give a special thank you to PostStatus for being our green room. If you are enjoying these shows, do us a favor, please hit Like and subscribe, share the video with your friends, reference this show in your email newsletters, and most of all, we hope to see you next week.

[00:52:57] Bye.

[00:52:58] Thomas Fanchin: Thanks. Bye.