ep78 WP Product Talk: How Pre-Launch Marketing can help HYPE your Next Product Launch with Kevin Geary

[00:00:00] Matt Cromwell: Hey everyone, you have heard the saying before, if a tree falls in the woods and no one is there to hear it, does it make a sound? Um, well what about a product launch that no one buys up immediately? It's the same idea. You've poured your heart and sweat and tears into something amazing and launched it to complete silence.

[00:00:30] Matt Cromwell: No one wants that. So how can you generate interest and buy in ahead of your launch to ensure a highly successful launch day? Well, that's what we're talking about today. This is WP Product Talk place where every week we bring you insights, product marketing, business management and growth, customer experience, product development.

[00:00:53] Matt Cromwell: And more, it's your go to podcast for WordPress product owners by WordPress product owners, and now enjoy the show.

[00:01:08] Matt Cromwell: Hey,

[00:01:08] Katie Keith: welcome, welcome to WP Product Talk. I'm Katie Keith from Barn2 plugins.

[00:01:14] Matt Cromwell: And I'm Matt Cromwell from StellarWP.

[00:01:17] Katie Keith: So today we're talking about pre launch marketing and why it's important for product owners. And to do that, we've got a really great guest who is doing exactly that at the moment and has generated quite a stir in the WordPress industry and got everybody talking.

[00:01:33] Katie Keith: So we've got Kevin Geary on. Hey Kevin.

[00:01:37] Kevin Geary: Hey everybody. How are you?

[00:01:41] Kevin Geary: for having me. Glad to be here.

[00:01:44] Matt Cromwell: For everyone's sake, uh, do a quick introduction. Let us know who you are and what you do.

[00:01:49] Kevin Geary: Uh, I'm Kevin Geary. I'm a WordPress educator. I have a YouTube channel with, uh, hundreds of hours of free content on web design, best practices, and the latest in, in workflows and techniques and tactics.

[00:02:01] Kevin Geary: Uh, I'm a former agency owner. I have a software company that focuses on WordPress plugins and product development. Uh, that's kind of it. Um, I'm from Atlanta and, uh, got a wife and three, three beautiful girls.

[00:02:15] Matt Cromwell: Awesome. Love it. And today we do want to talk about, uh, this whole idea of building. I've been saying building hype around, uh, a launch, a product launch, or just building a lot of interest so that when you hit the ground running on day one, You get a bunch of purchases instead of a bunch of silence.

[00:02:36] Matt Cromwell: Uh, and there's a lot of different ways to do it. Uh, but what drew, drew my attention is that you're doing it right now. And you're actually doing it today. Um, your very first video, uh, of EtchWP. I'm saying EtchWP, EtchWP is going out tonight, right?

[00:02:51] Kevin Geary: Uh, yes, correct. Yeah. We're about nine, nine, a little less than nine hours away.

[00:02:58] Matt Cromwell: Um, amazing that you're here and not sweating bullets or anything. So

[00:03:03] Kevin Geary: we got, we got all the prep work done. I think, I think we're good to go.

[00:03:06] Matt Cromwell: Yeah. So we wanted to talk a little bit about what we've been kind of saying is like the elephant in the room, the launch of Etch or the pre launch of Etch, the, the the marketing and the tactics that you've been employing have been a little bit controversial, uh, among the WordPress space, among our audience. I mean, we're trying to talk to WordPress product owners out there and they're responding to the tactics in a little bit of a mixed fashion. I have to say, uh, some of them are saying it's really overly aggressive.

[00:03:35] Matt Cromwell: Some of them don't love the fact that nobody knows what the heck Etch is. And like, what are we buying into in the first place? Um, I'd love to hear just a little bit of your take on two things. One, just like, how are you responding to some of that pushback or feedback? And the second is, um, going to lead into the rest of the conversation, which is why did you choose this more, um, let's call it secretive, uh, route for, for launching Etch.

[00:04:00] Kevin Geary: Yeah, so I think first of all, let's, let's put it in context. Uh, there are some people that, um, you know, are voicing their opinion, uh, saying that's controversial, things like that. There's, I would say based on the emails that I'm getting based on the DMS that I'm getting based on what's happening in our inner circle and on my YouTube channel.

[00:04:19] Kevin Geary: It's 95 percent positivity and excitement. It's 5 percent detractors. Uh, I've always been, you know, very adamant about, and you know, I'm not, I'm used to this on my channel. I, I turn on video, uh, on YouTube and essentially, and I do this live every single week, I do pre recorded videos, but they're really the same thing.

[00:04:41] Kevin Geary: I turn on a camera, I record. I end the recording. I do hardly any editing whatsoever, and I publish the video. So when I do videos, they're not hyper polished videos. They're they're me. They're my personality. And I've said many times, like, I'm not, I'm not for everybody. I wish I was, but it's just impossible to be for everybody.

[00:05:02] Kevin Geary: And so there's always going to be a percent of detractors in any situation. It doesn't actually matter if you do everything by the book and you check every box and you try to please everybody. You'll still have detractors. It's just impossible to not have any detractors. So what I've learned is you just can't worry about the detractors all that much, and you focus on the people that are behind you and that are supporting you and, uh, that want what you are doing.

[00:05:27] Katie Keith: Are you sure it's impossible not to have detractors? Or is that just the way you're doing it?

[00:05:32] Kevin Geary: I'm a hundred percent positive. It is impossible.

[00:05:36] Katie Keith: Yeah, because I mean, you are, um, intentionally doing things to get people's emotions, for example, the video, um, "Dear WordPress", I think it was called, which talks about some, in my opinion, very valid concerns about the way WordPress is going, made some very valid points about, uh, what you thought should be done, like a moratorium.

[00:05:59] Katie Keith: I think that's the right word on, uh, development, except for UI. Like I say, stop adding new features. Focus on UI for a year, lots of people agree with that, but then people got upset because, and I commented on this on Twitter as well, because at the end, it turned into a sales pitch and I'm like, hang on, I thought this was Kevin's genuine opinion and now I don't trust as much because he linked it to the launch of Etch and so maybe it's the way you're doing things, which definitely generates hype, but that might be why there are 5 percent detractors.

[00:06:33] Kevin Geary: I think, um, I think people naturally, and I don't blame them for doing this. I think it's perfectly normal. They take the baggage from other marketers and put it on the next one, right, that comes down the pike. So for example, um, you know, you said it's, uh, uh, the video is a sales pitch at the end. It's actually not a sales pitch at the end.

[00:06:52] Kevin Geary: It's just an invitation to come to a special event. Um, and the sales pitch will be in the special event and people will get to decide what, you know, I. Okay. I see. Here's the thing I've told my team. This I've told everybody that's asked me about this. I don't, I don't need everybody to buy. I don't want everybody to buy.

[00:07:10] Kevin Geary: I want the people who feel that this is a legitimate product for a legitimate future in WordPress and a legitimate fit for their uses. I'm not trying to get everybody to buy. Um, I want as many people as possible to hear the idea and the concept and make a decision. Uh, but, but I'm not trying to convince everybody to, to buy it.

[00:07:28] Kevin Geary: Um, we already have, I have an inner circle with closing in on 2000 members. It's a paid community. It's all agency owners and freelancers. The minimum that we needed to like move forward to greenlight this project to do, to do the rest of the work that we need. It's a big, it's a massive project as people are going to see.

[00:07:44] Kevin Geary: Um, that was already in the bag before any of this started. Like, you know, I've said like many times now, and I think people, um, They're not missing it, but maybe they don't believe it. Maybe they think, maybe they think, you know, I'm not being honest, but there's two things at play here. One is a product called Etch.

[00:08:01] Kevin Geary: The second thing is a much bigger, very important mission within WordPress. And so when I make a video called Dear WordPress, I am not selling people on Etch, I'm selling them on WordPress. selling people on the ideas that I laid out in the, in the video called dear WordPress. And I, I put out a game plan and I a hundred percent believe in that game plan and believe it needs to happen regardless of Etch.

[00:08:25] Kevin Geary: Now Etch fits into that future of WordPress and that game plan. And I think that's natural because the entire point of product creation is that you're identifying real needs and you're filling those needs. with a product or a service. And so, uh, for sure, if we've identified major problems, what we've also identified are is a major opportunity to solve those problems and people get a lot of benefit from that.

[00:08:48] Kevin Geary: So, uh, to me, I'm just doing what is a natural thing of, Hey, guys, here's the problems I'm seeing. And by the way, it's not just me again. Thousands of agency owners feel this way. They agree with these things. So let's put it out there. Let's get WordPress moving in this direction. And by the way, I'm going to put up my solution for these things.

[00:09:05] Kevin Geary: And other people are also free to put up their solutions as well.

[00:09:08] Matt Cromwell: Yeah, I think another aspect that folks have called out that they are a little uncomfortable with is, is even just the claim. The biggest word best product announcement for the last 20 years. Um, it's a big, bold claim. And like the, the hardest thing about claims like this is you got to own it after the launch is out there.

[00:09:29] Matt Cromwell: Um, and so, and even, especially when you choose a more, you know, secretive, uh, launch strategy, um, and also make a claim like this. Uh, it's a, it can be an awkward combination. Um, what's your, what's your take on that?

[00:09:44] Kevin Geary: Yeah. So if people don't know me and they don't, they haven't used my, my products and they, they see, yeah, you know. There's context of, do you, do you know the person we are? We're in marketing. Like we know it's no like trust, right? If you don't know, like trust somebody, then you're naturally defensive. You're wary of, of what they're saying. And people have, again, this is, this is baggage from other people. Uh, people have made gigantic, bold claims before and then not followed through with them.

[00:10:11] Kevin Geary: And you're looking at their track record instead of looking at my track record. My track record is this is not my first rodeo. My track record is we have a flagship product called audio. Automatic CSS, it's the number one in its category, and it has, you can't, it's, it's not arguable at this point. It has fundamentally changed how people use frameworks in WordPress, how frameworks can work for the user.

[00:10:36] Kevin Geary: Uh, it, it has actually transformed people's workflows tremendously. We're doing, and, and people that haven't used it or seen it, they don't, they, they don't under you can't understand, and I understand that you can't understand without seeing it or doing it or living it. Um, but. What they can look at is, Oh, okay.

[00:10:52] Kevin Geary: This isn't a guy with zero products. This isn't a guy who just showed up. This is a guy that has produced hundreds of hours of content. He does live streams every single week. He has a flagship product that's very successful and has fundamentally transformed people's workflows. He has another product that's also number one in its category.

[00:11:10] Kevin Geary: He has an inner circle full of 2000 paid agency owners and free. There's gotta be something there. Like these are what I say, context clues as to, okay, maybe I should Listen and not immediately outright reject what I'm, what I'm seeing and hearing. And again, there's a lot of people commenting very positively who people can listen to as well.

[00:11:30] Kevin Geary: It's not just, it's not just me.

[00:11:33] Matt Cromwell: I like that concept of context clues. I think that's an important one. We should lean in on that a little bit when we get into the meat and potatoes of this later. But, uh, um. Okay. We got a good, uh, you got a couple of fans here in the, in the comments here too. Um, Mark here saying "It's verifiably, absolutely, positively impossible to please everyone."

[00:11:52] Matt Cromwell: Um, and right before that, he's definitely is like, ah, "KG, Hyperbeast, Firefire." So you definitely got some fans here as well. Um, But, uh, Katie, we got another good comment, right?

[00:12:07] Katie Keith: Yep. So Blake Whittle has asked "For those that don't have as large of a following, how do you generate hype?"

[00:12:14] Katie Keith: And I think that's a really fair question because a lot of prelaunch marketing does rely on an existing audience. And Kevin, you've just talked about your credentials. So pe- a lot of people watching this haven't got an existing audience. So let's talk a bit about other examples of pre-launch campaigns that have been done for WordPress products. And some of those might have existing followings and others don't.

[00:12:40] Katie Keith: Um, so I'll start with one, which somebody that didn't have particularly large following, which was actually published a few years ago, but it's just such a good article that I still refer to it regularly, which is an article on the Freemius blog. We'll need to put it in the show notes, um, which Vito Peleg did about "How to have a hundred thousand plus dollar WordPress product launch". And this is from when WP Feedback, which is now called Atarim was originally launched. So that tells you this was a while ago, but everything in it is totally valid. And this is a really long article. And he talks in detail about how he launched, uh, WP Feedback and he, this was his first WordPress product.

[00:13:26] Katie Keith: I think they were an agency before that doing like web design projects. And therefore he had some following, but really he was solving a pain point that he knew about from his own work with clients. So he'd come up with this unique product idea that he was going to introduce. But the strategies that he mentioned in this article on the Freemius blog are things like Um, raising awareness through word of mouth and that sort of thing.

[00:13:55] Katie Keith: And he built, um, some quite cool things like different groups of pre launch people that wanted to be to test the products. And, uh, he called them, uh, he had special names for different categories of pre launch marketing customers. And I thought that his strategy outlined there in much more detail than what I've said, was really useful.

[00:14:16] Katie Keith: Uh, but the other thing I liked about it was that, um, in, in contrast to Kevin's, which is like, let's get people excited without knowing what the product does, Vito focused on exactly the benefit to agencies, which was, are you fed up with your clients having to send a million emails telling you, Different things in problems with the website you've built for them and giving feedback.

[00:14:40] Katie Keith: Are you fed up with Google docs and getting all confused? So he'd found a problem and was promising a solution and getting people excited on the specifics, which I really like. So Matt, do you want to, um, share your example next? It says the opt in, or is that, um, Kevin's opt in email?

[00:15:02] Matt Cromwell: Oh no, yeah, I wanted to highlight a little bit of what Kevin is doing, um, I, one reason why I liked, I, I personally, I do like the, Um, you can't wait to see what's coming next approach.

[00:15:15] Matt Cromwell: Let's say like the secrecy approach or the, like it's coming later, uh, approach. I personally like it. Um, and it, to me, I, it just appeals to me because I'm like, I am, I am interested. I want to know. And I love the whole idea of, of being in on, uh, like I'm on the inside track. Uh, you're, you're giving me, uh, Uh, a front, uh, front seat to something that's maybe a little bit exclusive.

[00:15:40] Matt Cromwell: Um, is that I want to, I'm going to share just your first email, um, after you sign in. But, um, is that a little bit, tell me a little bit about your thought when you were developing this, this strategy, um, was, was that what you were thinking or why specifically did you choose it? To be this strategy.

[00:15:58] Kevin Geary: Yeah. It's not, um, it's not the tactic that people think that it is like they, this, I wouldn't say that this has been a, uh, tactical secrecy. Like let's just, let's keep all the details from them because that will build so much hype. Imagine, imagine if we just don't tell them what it is, how much hype will that build?

[00:16:17] Kevin Geary: Like, I think that's what people think happened, right? What, that's it. That didn't happen. Uh, we have, first of all, there's a lot of work that has to be done in a launch. There's a lot that has to be done in a launch of, of this size and this magnitude and this scope and this, uh, this importance that goes into a launch like this, and that takes time.

[00:16:35] Kevin Geary: It takes time to do all of that. Now you can do that work in the dark. Or you can do that work in, in public. Right. And so as I'm doing the work behind the scenes, I'm also talking about what we're doing now. There are, this is, you know, when you, when you're going to come in and legitimately, you're going to introduce a concept that is shifting the ecosystem that is, um, introducing, I've said, it's introducing a new era in WordPress.

[00:17:01] Kevin Geary: And again, don't put other people's baggage on. My statements about it. If we're introducing a new era, a lot of people are are going to get moved around. Okay. A lot of other players that are already in the ecosystem. Um, they have a lot. A lot of these people have a lot more money than me, by the way, and way bigger teams than I do.

[00:17:22] Kevin Geary: And so the idea that we're going to come in with these Ideas that we're bringing to the table and just give them a gigantic head start before we even get a chance to get our thing off the ground. Like that's that's not it's not a that's not a winning. I gotta play in a winning situations, right? It's also a major product.

[00:17:42] Kevin Geary: Uh, this is not a product where you write up a landing page and then send it to people, or you write up an email and you send it to somebody. Uh, what I would compare this to, and all of my agency owner and freelancer people out here know this, like this would just not be smart. It would not be smart to, you know, you get on the call, the discovery call with a client.

[00:17:58] Kevin Geary: You talk with them for 15 minutes and they say, Hey, you know, I got to run, send me a proposal. And so you go and you write up this huge proposal, all of these details and everything, and then you send it over to them. I I've done many, many agency sales training videos. This would be the number one thing that you never, ever, ever do.

[00:18:16] Kevin Geary: Why? Because the client opens that. They skim through it. They don't digest anything. They don't really understand anything that you're saying. They look at the number at the bottom. They make a rash decision. And then they're like, ah, okay, whatever. We'll, we'll hear from somebody else, right? If you want to close the deal, then you get them on the call and you make sure that you're having a real conversation with them and you're going through the details in person and you're hearing their objections and their feedback and that, so that's the situation that you have to create when it's a complex.

[00:18:43] Kevin Geary: Project. You can't just give them a brochure to glance over. That's never. That's not gonna be the situation that's needed for either one of you. Uh, and I want to tie this in also to when you're building something that you truly believe in and that you truly feel is important. You have a duty to sell it.

[00:19:02] Kevin Geary: You have a duty to get as many people as possible to know about it. If I was starting a Feed the homeless shelter, uh, in a specific city, like, and I legitimately believe in that mission, I should be doing whatever I can to convince every single person. I'd be telling the stories of the people that I'm helping.

[00:19:19] Kevin Geary: I do whatever I need to do to make sure that I bring enough attention to that thing. Otherwise it's going to die and nobody is going to get helped. Like that's, that's, that's exactly what we're looking at in terms of those kinds of situations. So people will criticize Mark and, Oh, look at all the attention he's getting.

[00:19:36] Kevin Geary: Look at the attention. Of course, of course, I, I a hundred percent believe in this thing and I believe in what it can do. It's my job to get the attention. That's, that's what I have to do.

[00:19:48] Matt Cromwell: Yeah, no, I sympathize with that. I mean, I have done many a product launch where I wish I was drawing more attention. Uh, and honestly, sometimes that that's that's the reality of it is like, are you actually trying the attention or not?

[00:20:03] Matt Cromwell: And honestly, negative press is still press. Um, and that can sometimes be beneficial as well. Um, and I don't hear anybody Out there saying things that are like detrimental to your launch in any way. Um, they're just critical of maybe this isn't the best tactic, um, in their mind. Um, I will say like from this email, um, that what I really like about it, um, is the way in which you're drawing people in.

[00:20:30] Matt Cromwell: And, and saying like, Hey, this isn't for everybody. This is, we have, it's limited. Um, I think that that's a really important tactic. And it's also like, you're not going to get a recording later. You're going to attend the thing or you're not going to be there. Um, and that's about it. Um, the exclusivity aspect of what you're doing, I think is.

[00:20:50] Matt Cromwell: Is brave, honestly, um, because a lot of folks are more desperate to make sure that they get a thousand attendees. Yeah, but that's fake

[00:21:00] Katie Keith: scarcity, isn't it? Because a thousand is a very high number. It's like when we say, uh, on Black Friday, Friday or something, the first 500 of these will get a discount. And we know that only 50 people will use the code or something.

[00:21:13] Katie Keith: So I hope you get a thousand, but it's a good psychological tactic.

[00:21:18] Kevin Geary: There's going to, first of all, we had to pay extra to increase it to 3000 because I didn't, I didn't want anybody to, to try to get it. There were legitimately, people were not going to get it. People were not going to get it. I mean, we can, we can look at the waiting list.

[00:21:30] Kevin Geary: Like it's, you know, um, it's obvious that people are not going to get in. Um, And I can't there's there's an event that's not even that is not even talked about in these emails that other people who are in my inner circle, they already know what's that that is already like over the cap. So, um, and like I said before, this is already been in the bag before any of this started.

[00:21:51] Kevin Geary: We have to go back to the fact that there is a legitimate mission that I am on in WordPress, and it is way, way, way bigger than Etch. And everything that I'm doing is about a long game. It is not about tonight. It is not about the live stream tomorrow. It is about the next three to five years inside of WordPress.

[00:22:09] Kevin Geary: Tonight is just, Actually, it's not even the start of that. I started a couple of years ago. I told people two years ago, I'm just warming up. Automatic CSS was a warm up. Frames was a warm up. Okay, we're just getting started. We are on a real mission to create real change in this ecosystem. We've already done it to a large degree, but that's, again, that's just the start of what's about to happen.

[00:22:30] Kevin Geary: So, none of that is hype. People were not going to be able to get in. Uh, I paid extra to increase the limit to make sure that, because I, I didn't want, if there was five people that didn't get in, even just five, you know, some people would say, Hey, let's, all right, let's five people, whatever. I didn't want the negativity from those five people.

[00:22:46] Kevin Geary: So I just said, let's just increase it. Right. And I've also said, I've underestimated every single launch that we've done. When we did automatic CSS, the very first launch, I was like, all right, maybe we'll sell a hundred licenses. That was 300 licenses. I said then, and that was. That was the pre sale for it.

[00:23:01] Kevin Geary: I've done the same process for every single product, by the way. Um, and then so automatic CSS, the next launch, I was like, ah, maybe we'll do, maybe we'll do two 5, 500 somewhere. No, no, no. It's, it's way, way beyond that. And so I tend to be more conservative and I underestimate things. So I was like, I think, you know, when you're choosing zoom webinar packages, which by the way, they're not, it's kind of, you know, uh, it's.

[00:23:22] Kevin Geary: It's not a lot of money compared to like what you're going to get in the launch. But still, I, I, you know, I'm looking at it as I, I have to manage the money of this project. It's an expensive project. I would love that extra 800 from zoom to put into the project, to give to one of my developers. Right. And so I was like, maybe we can get away with the thousand cap.

[00:23:40] Kevin Geary: Cause you have to choose. You have to say how many people are going to be allowed in. Uh, and so I bought the thousand and I was like, let's try to make it do with that. We got multiple events. We're good. And then it became very clear leading up to it. That's not going to work. And so we paid the extra, we made it 3000 because I do legitimately want everybody to get in now.

[00:23:57] Kevin Geary: I don't legitimately want everybody to be able to get the LTD offered. Like that's, that's, I don't, I want to cap that. You have to cap that it wouldn't be smart to just let everybody have that. Um, and it is a special thing to have. So that's not fake scarcity that is built in, like just. You know, financial security of the project.

[00:24:14] Kevin Geary: Cause I've, I've said many times, LTDs are great as a, a, uh, initial deal. And then you got to shut them off as fast as you possibly can. Uh, or at least like I do with automatic CSS, you offer a hybrid approach.

[00:24:28] Matt Cromwell: Hmm. Nice. Nope. I agree. I think I, I do share, um, Katie's skepticism a bit about, about some of the tactics, about the ability to generate all these things, but.

[00:24:41] Matt Cromwell: I love the audacity. That's the thing. I love the passion about it because honestly, I talk with too many WordPress product owners who are like, yeah, we're going to write some blog posts and we're going to send some emails and I hope it goes well. And I'm like, That's not going well, like, but not with that attitude, it's not going well.

[00:24:58] Matt Cromwell: I

[00:24:58] Kevin Geary: was going to say earlier, there's a graveyard, like people look at what's going on right now in the ecosystem and ooh, this launch coming up. What they always forget to bring into the context is there is a literal graveyard of thousands of plugins and themes and products that never got anywhere close.

[00:25:17] Kevin Geary: to making it. And why didn't they? I mean, for various reasons, right? But you're not going to catch me in that graveyard. Like, especially if I believe in my thing, you're not going to catch me in that graveyard. Okay. So, um, you know, people can criticize, but what they also have to look at is, uh, is results, you know?

[00:25:35] Matt Cromwell: Yeah, the other one that I say to folks all the time is like we didn't criticize all we want. But the truth is, I know that I am not your customer. Me personally. I know I'm not. You're speaking. You might be. You need to cover

[00:25:45] Kevin Geary: the live stream. You might be.

[00:25:47] Matt Cromwell: I mean, I signed up for it. I don't know if I'll get in.

[00:25:50] Matt Cromwell: I might be one of those five. No, you'll get in. But the thing is like you're speaking to a specific audience, a specific segment. And I mean, I think Mark in the comments here is one of your biggest fans. Um, and, uh, and they love it. They're eating it up and that's what really matters, you know, and that goes back to your original comment about like, there are going to be naysayers.

[00:26:12] Matt Cromwell: Um, and I don't, my only caveat to there are always going to be naysayers is that. Naysayers usually still have a pretty strong gram of truth in what they're saying, even if their naysaying comes across, uh, overly negative or even a little biting. Even there's still something there. There's something there.

[00:26:31] Matt Cromwell: I'd, I never liked, uh, dismissing feedback. I think feedback is be bad all the time, but that's another subject for another topic. Um, let's bring up Mark's comment here. Cause this segway is really nicely over to another, uh, Uh, product launch. We want to talk about. Um, Mark says there's two options. Build your own audience or partner with and pay influencers to do it for you.

[00:26:53] Matt Cromwell: I mean, that goes to that answering that question earlier from Blake. Um, what do you do if you don't have a large following? Well, You try to get in with somebody who does have a large following. Uh, Katie has a specific example about that one.

[00:27:07] Katie Keith: Yeah, I really love that as well, because it touches on something we talked about two weeks ago with Vova Feldman, where we were talking about, um, the content side of things and what should actually ex Envato sellers do if they don't have a Following they've always sold on Envato.

[00:27:23] Katie Keith: They want to set up their own website and sell independently. How did they do that? And we did talk about, well, maybe you partner with somebody who can do that. And, um, or like affiliates or whatever sorts of partnership. Uh, but the example we were going to share today is the launch. Of orderable, which I think was in late 2020.

[00:27:43] Katie Keith: Um, which was at the time of partnership between James Kemp from iconic and Adam Chrysler from, um, WP crafter. And, uh, James wanted to do this product and he had a successful company. Uh, but he. Wasn't a big marketer in the sense that someone like adam is who has a very large personal following Who will basically buy whatever they recommend?

[00:28:06] Katie Keith: so that was a really good partnership because adam did a lot of pre launch marketing, um, On his youtube channel and got people really interested in orderable and the benefits of it of it. And so when it actually came out, people were really excited. It was at the height of the pandemic when, uh, restaurants were suddenly having to sell online for the first time.

[00:28:27] Katie Keith: Although I realized orderables not just restaurants these days, it's just local ordering and things. And, uh, they sold a hundred thousand dollars in their first month. Um, like Kevin mentioned, that was largely lifetime sales. And I really love that strategy because you don't like Kevin said, you don't want life lifetime to be a big part of your ongoing revenue.

[00:28:52] Katie Keith: You want that annual subscription or monthly or whatever your business model is. You want recurring revenue. But when you're still getting that trust and you need early adopters, you need testimonials, people to create a buzz around your product, Lifetime is a great idea. And so Adam did that really well and they had a really successful launch for that reason.

[00:29:13] Katie Keith: And another thing they did that I really like is that it was only a minimum viable product at that stage. So they sold it based on future features, saying things like coming soon, this new feature. And so people would buy now in the promise that that feature would be added in the future. So they could get those sales, even though they haven't done the full development work yet.

[00:29:37] Kevin Geary: Yeah. Yeah. This is, this is, it's a very smart way to do things. It's a smart approach to, first of all. Um, You know, if people haven't done product launches before, they don't have a lot of the knowledge context that's that, you know, leads you to make certain decisions that you make. Okay. There have been a lot of people who have done, um, who have done launches.

[00:30:00] Kevin Geary: And they're like, here, here are my promises. Right. Um, what they do though, and they, and they think they're being fair and they think they're being, you know, I don't know, I don't even know what to call it, everybody seems like it's, you know, nothing unethical is being done. Right. And any of this process, um, but they'll, they'll essentially tell people what they're going to build.

[00:30:17] Kevin Geary: They'll give all of the details. And then they just want people to essentially say like, yay or nay. And they get a lot of people that are like, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's all. Oh yes. Yes. Oh, I'm totally in. I'm totally in. Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's an amazing idea. And then, so they're like, Oh, okay. Look at all this great feedback.

[00:30:33] Kevin Geary: And then they go out and they put all this money and all this time and they build this thing. And then, you know what? They show back up and they go, all right guys, I did it. And then it's crickets and suddenly nobody can find their wallet. Imagine that. Right. Um, and so how many people has that happened to?

[00:30:49] Kevin Geary: That's an awful, awful situation to be in. Uh, most product creators have probably been in that at some point, if they've made that mistake. And so what do they do next? Then, then the next product creator or that same one comes along the next time. He's like, you know what I learned from that. What I'm actually going to do is let people vote with their dollars.

[00:31:07] Kevin Geary: And so I'm going to say, Hey, here's my idea. Here's what I'm going to build. If you actually like it, get your wallet out now, right? Because I'm not going to take all the risk. I'm not gonna do all of the work and on, on, on a promise. Right. I want you to pay with your dollar. I want you to vote with your dollar.

[00:31:22] Kevin Geary: Then I take that dollar and I can actually build the feature and then we can be successful together and we can have an awesome thing. Right. So it is a way to share the risk. There's risk on both sides. There's massive risk to the developer. There's massive, there's risk to the early adopter as well. And so I've always said that risk should be shared.

[00:31:42] Kevin Geary: It shouldn't be on one or the other to take on all the risks.

[00:31:47] Katie Keith: Yeah, I really like that because it is a thing definitely, as you say, that people get all excited or they say they are, but then when the product actually comes out, they've moved on or they didn't mean what they said, or they end up not buying.

[00:32:00] Katie Keith: And I've heard a good strategy, which Lifter LMS do in their prelaunch marketing, which is they actually take the sale. The money before the product exists. And that's very similar to what you're saying, Kevin, well, get your wallet out if you're so interested. So people

[00:32:18] Kevin Geary: will criticize that. They will criticize that if you, if you try to ask them that, you know, there's that criticism floats around, Oh, they want money for something that's not even there.

[00:32:26] Kevin Geary: This is, that's how software should be developed. This should not be developed any other way.

[00:32:32] Katie Keith: Yeah. It's like taking the whole prelaunch mailing list, another step. Step you actually take the sale. Um, they sell on WooCommerce and they've just wrote some custom code so that they could do a pre sale discount, take the sale, get the money.

[00:32:45] Katie Keith: But the first renewal wasn't till a year after the launch. So customers were happy with that and the exact date didn't matter too much. And, uh, Chris says that they've made over a hundred thousand dollars in sales from pre selling where they actually received the money. I don't know why all my examples are 100, 000, but that seems to be the goal for Queen's.

[00:33:06] Katie Keith: Sounds like a

[00:33:07] Matt Cromwell: good, a good, a relative guess.

[00:33:09] Katie Keith: Yeah, that's three examples.

[00:33:12] Matt Cromwell: Saying 93, 000 is just not impressive enough, so. Rounds

[00:33:16] Katie Keith: up.

[00:33:18] Matt Cromwell: Um, let's talk a little bit about some pros and cons. Uh, uh, again, about the, uh, specific, uh, different ways of transparency or, uh, some secretiveness. Uh. Kevin, what's your take, like, in terms of, like, again, being a little bit more secretive about the approach, like, do you anticipate already a little bit of cons, not in terms of, like, the, the, the, uh, folks who have criticized it publicly, but even among the folks who are in, who, who signed up and things, what, I mean, the immediate one that comes to my head is that, You do launch the video and they are like, well, this isn't what I signed up for.

[00:33:55] Matt Cromwell: Um, and so, uh, can you speak a little bit to that? Like what kind of cons do you see in this tactic that you've taken?

[00:34:01] Kevin Geary: Are you referring to the deer WordPress video that wouldn't resonate with them or? No, your videos that are

[00:34:08] Matt Cromwell: launching tonight, the first one tonight and the next several days, like they find they get to the big reveal because they don't know what's coming exactly, you know?

[00:34:16] Matt Cromwell: Um, they get to the big reveal and they're like, no, this isn't at all what I signed up for that. That would be one con in my mind to this tactic.

[00:34:22] Kevin Geary: Well, I know my audience. I know the, I know my target, right? So there's, there's, and I do, this is why I do day in and day out. I know exactly what they want. I know exactly what they're looking for.

[00:34:32] Kevin Geary: I know exactly what their challenges and struggles are. So I'm fairly confident, right? Um, and you know, other people behind the scenes have seen the, the live stream already, you know, the deck and it's not a hundred percent live. This is not, is not. A series of videos or anything like that. I'm doing every single one of them live myself.

[00:34:49] Kevin Geary: Like, um, that's just how I do things. So, um, you know, like I said before, there's going to be 5 percent of people that detract there let's, I mean, let's be clear too. There's a lot of people who. Uh, they, they don't like me for whatever reason. They don't like my personality for whatever reason. They're not, uh, there's a lot of people in life that aren't intellectually honest.

[00:35:09] Kevin Geary: They will, they will come to the live stream already ready to discount everything. And then regardless of how impressive or industry changing or, or great the ideas are or the concepts are, and regardless of how many people love it and are excited about it and buy into it, they will still. Run to social media and go, Oh, this is all hype for nothing.

[00:35:29] Kevin Geary: Oh, this is nothing, but they're not actually being a truthful, honest, serious person. Um, there's, there's that going on too. And so you have to, like, judge everybody by the individual. Um, and I also, you know, I don't, um, I don't tend to try to guess their motivations for You know why they're talking that way or why they're doing those things.

[00:35:49] Kevin Geary: Um, but again, I've already chalked it up to it, you know, 5, 10%, whatever. We already hit our goal. We already are accomplishing the mission that we set out to do. We're already confident in what's going to happen over the next one to three years. I don't need everybody. I don't need everybody. I need my target and I already have my target.

[00:36:08] Kevin Geary: So that's why I'm able to be confident. It's, it's just already, it's already in the bag. It's already done.

[00:36:13] Matt Cromwell: Yeah, no, I like I said, I appreciate the confidence. I'll just say from a customer perspective, our customer experience perspective, kind of, that's my primary, um, modus operandi all the time. I can know my customer as well as I possibly can know.

[00:36:29] Matt Cromwell: and still get it wrong. Like, there's so many ways in which, like, you can get there, finally get it out there, and they're just like, no, this is a miss. Like, that's, that's the one aspect of the way that you're going about it that I'm kind of like, there still could be a sense in which you might lose more people than you think.

[00:36:46] Matt Cromwell: Yeah, I don't think I'm with you on the confident side right

[00:36:49] Kevin Geary: now. Here's the thing is I'm like, you know, I said the other day on Twitter, I said, I don't miss. Um, but here's the, here's the reality. Well, everyone

[00:36:57] Matt Cromwell: misses just

[00:36:58] Kevin Geary: like there's always naysayers. Everyone misses. And if it should happen, I am okay with taking an L like and saying, Hey, I took an L on that, like, and, and then regrouping and pivoting and coming back stronger next time is just, it's, that's.

[00:37:13] Kevin Geary: Process of life, right? Same thing. When I coach my daughter's softball team, it's like, look, you know, we're going to go into it thinking we're going to win every game and wanting to win every game, right? But if, if you lose, what you do is you learn from that and you come back stronger next time you take that back into practice or whatever.

[00:37:26] Kevin Geary: So in the case that it may be, um, you know, again, I don't think it's going to happen, but, uh, if it did, you know, I would be totally fine just turning on the camera and being like, guys, I took an L like, uh, yeah. There was a misstep somewhere. I got to go back and reevaluate and I would be perfectly honest about that, too, because, like you said, even on the downswing, like even on the downsides or even on negative press, there's still value to find in that.

[00:37:49] Kevin Geary: And there's still positivity that can that can come from that. So I'm not worried about I'm not in fear of it.

[00:37:55] Matt Cromwell: Yeah, absolutely. Um, there's lots to learn from, from, from failures to, um, to make us stronger. I mean, it sounds so super cheesy, but it absolutely is the case. Um, this is a good comment from Andrew Palmer.

[00:38:08] Matt Cromwell: Why shouldn't the developer take the risk? I mean, this goes back to what you were saying about shared risk aspect, car manufacturers, supermarkets and house builders take the risk. Why not? So you weren't saying, I'll just clarify, you weren't saying that the developer shouldn't take the risk. You were saying it should be some shared risk.

[00:38:24] Matt Cromwell: And honestly, like, even if it's shared risk, the development, I mean, for our serious product, you're spending hundreds of thousands of dollars of development costs in, into a product that makes 0 until the launch. That's a ton of risk. Oh, yeah. And then the consumer. The only risk they do is maybe if we do any of these tactics, like the one from lifter LMS, they, they got a lifetime license deal ahead of the schedule or whatnot.

[00:38:49] Matt Cromwell: They got, they, they spent maybe 400, 500 ahead of time, and then it ends up not being what they wanted. That is risk for sure. But it's. Nothing near the amount of risk that the, that, that the product team took, uh, to get out there. So I've not seen it as no risk for the development. It's just like shared risk, right?

[00:39:08] Kevin Geary: Yeah. It's shared risk, uh, but it's not all about risk. Uh, it's, it's, um, so I've said this many times, I feel that another, Big misstep in product development. And this is how many, many, many, maybe we could say most products in the WordPress ecosystem and even outside of the WordPress ecosystem are developed.

[00:39:26] Kevin Geary: They're developed in the dark of night by a one person development team or a very small development team, uh, based on the opinions of the people on that team and of nobody else. With really no user involvement or interaction. And I think that is a massive, massive, massive misstep in product development.

[00:39:43] Kevin Geary: Uh, I pre sold automatic CSS and I built it with the participation of the early adopters, literally every single deliverable. How do you guys like this? What do you, what do you think about this? Should we make this decision? Not make this decision. Did the exact same thing with frames at the exact same thing with the inner circle.

[00:39:58] Kevin Geary: It's how things. Actually, to me, it's not surprising that it is, it becomes a number one product in its category because it was built with the participate. Like, it wasn't just my opinions like put out there thrown up onto a, you know, V. S. Code canvas. It's like, we're actually doing this with the early. So if I want to do that process with the early adopters, I need to do it with the people who have bought in.

[00:40:23] Kevin Geary: So the people that voted with their dollars also get to help participate in the. In the development of it and is nearly guaranteed to be a success. Uh, and it's, it's way more fun too, by the way.

[00:40:34] Matt Cromwell: Yeah, I mean, you're speaking to the biggest pro of, uh, any pre launch tactics at all is basically to get things out there to get feedback, uh, to inform the development of the product in one form or another, like all the different ways in which you can do pre launch marketing tactics is intended to like seed a little bit of something so that people like are like, Yeah, I love that.

[00:40:59] Matt Cromwell: That's exactly what I'm looking for. Even what Katie was saying, highlighting from Vito and WP feedback, they're flirting things out there and saying, this is what is this the prop pain point that you have? And customers were like, yes, that's absolutely my point. Please solve that for me. Um, that that's biggest pro to this whole thing, including, uh, Build in public.

[00:41:20] Matt Cromwell: So Brendan here says it's a sort of build with me akin to build in public gives more respect to both sides. Customer and dev seems to me again speaking back to the idea of shared risk. Uh, your comment earlier, um, that bring the folks alongside. And be like, let's do this together. Uh, you're part of this process in one form or another.

[00:41:39] Matt Cromwell: Um, I think you lose some of that, um, with this more secretive approach, but you're saying that you also have an inner circle that where you're getting the feedback on the inner, so you're kind of trying to have your cake and eat it too, essentially.

[00:41:52] Kevin Geary: Well, I, um, no, I'm, I'm playing, I'm, again, I'm playing the long game.

[00:41:56] Kevin Geary: And so like, I don't need everybody right now. If you want to, um, you know, Two things like one, let's understand that the money coming in is not going into Kevin's bank account. Like it's going into our business bank account that is then going right into the hands of hardworking, awesome developers, right?

[00:42:16] Kevin Geary: Um, so that, that should be one thing that's, that's perfectly clear. Um, two is, you know, there's other kinds of risks you can take. I'm taking a, a in putting myself out there and being willing to, uh, have people launch these criticisms and think certain ways of me in order to, um, back the product in, in that way.

[00:42:36] Kevin Geary: Right. Uh, and we care deeply about the people who this product is for, and we want it to be a really awesome transformative experience for them. So all of the things that we're doing. Are, are because we want it to be successful because we want the people who use it to be successful. Um, everybody wants to focus on tactics and hype and this and that, and it's really not about any of that.

[00:42:59] Kevin Geary: What it is about is a successful product and the people who are buying it tonight are not buying it based on hype. They are buying it based on track record and they are buying it based on listening to the actual fundamentals. Of the product and the people who are rubbed the wrong way or who say no tonight, I am perfectly okay with that and accepting of that, because I know that two years down the line, when it's in a different phase, they're going to come back and they're going to buy it at that point, or three years down the line, they're going to buy it at that point.

[00:43:28] Kevin Geary: I don't need them to buy it. Now they're going to make that decision. We're going to prove certain things. They're going to, they're going to, this has happened with automatic CSS has happened with frames. In fact, I, I do these things with the understanding that. I have gotten hundreds of emails like with automatic CSS, we did initial offers initial with like a series of them and still to this day, I get people emailing me saying I was an idiot.

[00:43:51] Kevin Geary: I should have got it way, way back then when I said no, like I heard about it. I said, no, can I please, please, please? They're begging to get back in now. Right. And I'm like, I'm sorry. Like that was just for those people. Um, so if people want to say no now, I'm perfectly fine with that. We will prove it. And then they'll come back later and hopefully they won't send me an email.

[00:44:11] Kevin Geary: Right. But, uh, that's just been the process the entire time. And it's just the reality of the situation and the people who know. No, and the people who know are already getting in. And that's all we need right now. That's all we need right now. We'll get the rest later.

[00:44:25] Matt Cromwell: Yeah, I want to talk a little bit about built in public.

[00:44:28] Matt Cromwell: Um, it's another great tactic for presale launches. Uh, and I actually want to hear your take on that. If you believe it's a great tactic yourself, there are some really good examples of it. Um, I'll say one thing that we did, um, is, uh, we're When a couple of years ago, we were, we decided that we were going to rebrand I Themes, uh, if anybody's been around the WordPress space for a while, I Themes is literally one of the very oldest product brands in WordPress, one of them, um, and it's been around for forever and the name sounds like it's been around for forever, um, and so we felt it was really important that it, uh, have a new brand that represented the products that it was actually being really successful with.

[00:45:12] Matt Cromwell: Which were foundational products like security and backups and maintenance. Um, and so we, but because the brand I Themes brand has been around for so long and it has a big audience of folks who have been committed to it for, for more than 10 years. Um, we were like, we need to do this carefully and, and, and, and really make sure to, to vet, uh, however we change this.

[00:45:35] Matt Cromwell: Um, so we did a rebrand in public approach, uh, not a build in public, but a rebrand in public approach. Um, talking with the iThemes Academy folks, um, that, that have been doing things for a long time. Uh, on the inside, as well as making a lot of public, uh, posts about the rebrand effort so that everyone understood and knew what was going on.

[00:45:58] Matt Cromwell: Um, did that in the end result in like, when we, when we were actually live on SolidWP. com finally, uh, spoiler alert, it's SolidWP, we changed it to SolidWP. Um, Did that result in like a big giant launch day sale? Not at all. Not necessarily at all. Um, but what it did is it, it ensured that there was no disruption and I don't want to make too big of a deal out of it, but there was another giant brand named WooCommerce who recently just kind of rebranded and they went to woo.

[00:46:27] Matt Cromwell: com. Um, and that transition was really, really, really bad for them. Um, and I'm not sure if there's parallels there. I know that there are caveats and different details about why that didn't go as well. Uh, we also went from a, from one domain to a totally different domain that were very, very distinctly different.

[00:46:45] Matt Cromwell: So it's not the same thing, but it is really easy for that type of thing to go very badly. Um, so for the whole thing to have gone smooth without disruption, I thought was, was a good pro and a good, a good way to go. Another one I want to share super quick, um, that I've really enjoyed watching from the outside.

[00:47:04] Matt Cromwell: Um, is Aaron Edwards, who's been a guest on the show before he's been doing build in public a lot with, um, a product he built called Docspot. Um, and you'll see him, uh, sharing, uh, especially what I love is that he also shares very regularly. His bad news, um, activation conversion trend is going down and he's talking about what he's doing about that specifically.

[00:47:26] Matt Cromwell: Um, he's talking about ways in which he wins as well. Um, And just doing all of that out in the public and this is now that everything has been public already, um, for a while, but he was already doing building public, uh, in advance of his launch, um, and it definitely drew my attention because it was very similar to that same thing that WP feedback did where he was, you know, Asking publicly, Hey, do you want to have a chat bot on your website that's informed primarily by your online documentation that you can use for your support?

[00:47:58] Matt Cromwell: And I was like, I've looked around and everything I've seen is crap. If you could build something that's actually good, that does that really well and is easy to use. Um, and I don't have to get a Ph. D. In a I. Then I'll, I'll be all in. So he was speaking right to me and, um, the build in public approach, uh, uh, from him, uh, worked really well for me in particular and my team also.

[00:48:21] Matt Cromwell: So I like building public a lot. I think it's a great tactic. I don't know. Katie, Kevin, do you, either of you have comments, feedback, um, counter perspectives on the building public?

[00:48:32] Katie Keith: Yeah, I like it. And I think it can have a lot of value for you, not just for marketing, but in terms of your learning, like how Aaron Edwards got direct feedback from potential potential users so that that could make the product the best it can be and appeal to the target market.

[00:48:50] Katie Keith: My one concern that I've never quite got my head around is that you are giving ammunition to your competitors, almost inviting them to copy you. Does anybody have any advice about that?

[00:49:02] Matt Cromwell: That's a good one. I mean, I, uh, Kevin, you go, you go first.

[00:49:07] Kevin Geary: Uh, yeah, well, so I was just gonna say, um, you know, there's, there's people who might build in public because they legitimately want to share.

[00:49:15] Kevin Geary: So like, uh, with what Katie just said, I mean, maybe I think there's people are like, yeah, like, uh, yeah, use the code, take the code, whatever that, that's kind of like maybe the open source philosophy, right? Uh, where it's like, nah, the code's not secret. The ideas aren't secret. Like anybody can have them.

[00:49:29] Kevin Geary: Anybody can use them, that kind of thing. Um, Then there are people who, uh, might do build in public essentially saying like, Oh, yeah, I mean, it's, it's cool. Like we're open. Look how transparent they are or we are. But what they're really doing is they're trying to leverage it as a marketing tactic. Like what they're really in for is just the whatever exposure they think they're going to get from building in public.

[00:49:52] Kevin Geary: And so there's people that are legitimately doing it. There's people who are doing it as a tactic. And so once again, I, and I'm just using this as an example of, you're not going to make everybody happy because anybody can choose to interpret that you're doing that for whichever reason. And it doesn't matter which reason you say you're doing it for.

[00:50:08] Kevin Geary: They have their own opinion of you and, you know, Oh, I know their real motives, you know, um, you just, you just can't, you know, it's kind of, uh, you got to do what you want to do and stick to that.

[00:50:20] Matt Cromwell: Yeah, like any marketing tactic. Let's just call it a marketing tactic just to make the conversation easier real quick.

[00:50:26] Matt Cromwell: Like any marketing tactic. You launch that marketing campaign at the right time under the right circumstances and the build in public folks that I've seen that do really well are the ones who time the marketing campaign. Their public, uh, their public work, um, around when the product is ready to start being talked about publicly.

[00:50:47] Matt Cromwell: Um, so if somebody was doing something really interesting and, and innovative, um, and they start doing build in public, most likely they already have a ship date in mind. Most likely they're already like this is going to be shippable in like three months because having a build in public campaign that goes nine months, nobody want nobody has that attention span.

[00:51:08] Matt Cromwell: Um, they're not going to stick with you that long, but three months, you're going to pull them along. You're going to give them some more. You're going to do a big video half reveal. At some point, you're going to have a beta launch that people are going to opt into like you're going to keep them going and excited through the whole build in public phase so that if somebody is like, I want to do that exact thing.

[00:51:27] Matt Cromwell: Well, they're already a year behind because you've been building a long time before you did your build in public, uh, approach. Um, so they're going to be, they're going to be way behind by the time they, they catch up to where you're at on.

[00:51:39] Kevin Geary: Yeah, that would be the tactical build in public approach, right? It wouldn't be the, that wouldn't be the authentic build in public approach though.

[00:51:45] Kevin Geary: Right? Like the authentic build in public would be show them everything, show them everything from day one, show them all the planning, show them the doodles, show them whatever, right? Show them all that stuff. And if it takes nine months. That's what a real product takes sometimes to get to that point, show them the whole nine months.

[00:51:58] Kevin Geary: Um, and so, yeah, there's a way to authentically do the entire build in public thing, but then there's a way to make it a tactic where we're like, ah, but I mean, we don't want to, we don't want to really build everything in public, do we? Like, uh, you know, that kind of thing. So, but again, it's up to everybody to make their own decisions on how they want to approach.

[00:52:16] Matt Cromwell: Yeah, for sure. Pros and cons again, all of them, everything's

[00:52:20] Kevin Geary: pros and cons.

[00:52:22] Matt Cromwell: We got to get into best advice to wrap up. But one more quick one I want to mention is there is like a standard tried and true, uh, beta campaign as well. Um, that's another way to, to do pre launch, um, marketing tactics is to basically launch to, to, to actually launch as a pre launch, uh, you get, you put something out there that's.

[00:52:43] Matt Cromwell: That's probably free or really easy low opt in, um, for people to beat it up and give you feedback in advance. Um, and ideally, in that relationship, that they're opting into your free option or they're opting into the beta in one form or another, you're also stoking their interest and you're trying to get them more excited about the actual launch in which you will be asking for them to go.

[00:53:05] Matt Cromwell: Take out their wallets. Um, and of course you're going to give them a big discount. Maybe you're going to offer some lifetime deals at that launch. Um, but all of that is precursor to a physical, like, all right, now it's time to buy. I like the, I feel like that one's a really safe way to go. I feel like it's tried and true.

[00:53:22] Matt Cromwell: People have done that quite a bit. Um, and it does tend to result in a lot better, uh, day of, um, sales essentially. Um, none of this, you know, impacts. Are you actually going to be successful in the long term? Uh, that's a totally different question. Totally different episode. Um, but in terms of like actually being successful, feeling successful, having actual sales and revenue on launch day, I think all three of these, um, types of tactics are, are useful and beneficial.

[00:53:52] Matt Cromwell: I have pros and cons of their own. Um, wait a second. We got one more interesting comment here. Um, Andrew Palmer. Again, what Katie said is risky, but yeah, just carry on as Katie's omnipresence that I. That I think has resulted in a lot of growth for bond barn too. Katie, I, I said, we might try to make you feel a little bit awkward on the show too.

[00:54:13] Matt Cromwell: So

[00:54:15] Katie Keith: yeah, well, it's interesting because people say I build in public, which isn't even a conscious thing. I don't even build. I'm the CEO. Um, I, I use Twitter as an extended mastermind group and everybody just tells me how to run my business. It's great. People are like, Oh, Katie's so open. I'm just asking for help.

[00:54:37] Katie Keith: So it's quite convenient. So everybody wins because people watch really interesting discussions and things like that. Um, and everybody's kind of part of that discussion and can learn from it. So, um, it works really well, I think for everybody just to be open about how you're running the business and the numbers when they're good and bad, like Matt, you were saying about Aaron earlier that he shares when things are bad and people respect you for that.

[00:55:03] Katie Keith: They don't think less of you.

[00:55:05] Matt Cromwell: Absolutely. Yeah, that's the authenticity aspect that Kevin was referencing to like, I think all of these benefit from authenticity

[00:55:14] Kevin Geary: for sure. And, and, you know, I think Katie's authenticity comes through, but I guarantee there are going to be people in the back of their mind who are like, ha, she, she knows the answer to these questions.

[00:55:22] Kevin Geary: She's asking these questions. question. So she can get engagement on Twitter. Like this is exact. I'm telling you, you cannot please everybody and you, and if somebody does criticize you in that form and you're like, you know yourself, you're like, no, no, no. Like legitimately, this is just, this is me. This is what I'm doing.

[00:55:37] Kevin Geary: This is like, you know, that's authentic. Uh, and they're trying to claim that you aren't, um, it either gets very, very, very frustrating or you learn that, oh, these aren't serious people and I'm just going to ignore them.

[00:55:49] Matt Cromwell: Yeah, absolutely. I will say truthfully, like I pride myself on being extremely approachable, extremely open and happy to have conversation with everybody.

[00:55:58] Matt Cromwell: I have had my share of naysayers. They just don't believe a single word I say and there's nothing I can do to change it. Um, I, I, there's plenty of them. It happens, um, uh, like we do every week. I want to wrap us up with, uh, best advice. What is our best advice for folks who want to do pre launch marketing to have a really successful launch?

[00:56:21] Matt Cromwell: Um, Katie, can you go first? Are you ready to do your best advice?

[00:56:26] Katie Keith: Yeah, I would say have confidence. Um, Kevin is a wonderful example of this. He believes in his product. He's passionate about it and he wants to tell the world cause he believes it will benefit them. So that kind of confidence will really help you.

[00:56:41] Katie Keith: Um, I, I like what Matt said. said earlier about people that just say I have a really kind of lukewarm approach to it. And I'm definitely guilty of that myself. You don't have a massive launch when you have that attitude. So have confidence and implement some, um, known marketing, uh, psychological strategies, things like having a scarcity, things like a limited lifetime sale.

[00:57:06] Katie Keith: Lifetime deals are often frowned upon in WordPress, but not so much in terms of the launch. Cheers. Generally accepted that that can be an excellent thing for a new product and helps with the scarcity as well and getting people on board early and consider things like actually letting people buy and pay for the product before you've even launched it because that can help you with your cash flow.

[00:57:28] Katie Keith: It can get the commitment from people, get them feeding back early. So you've got a beta testers and so on. And in addition, it's really great market research because it helps you to The credibility of your products and see that people genuinely want it.

[00:57:44] Matt Cromwell: Absolutely. I'll follow that up. Um, and I would say very similarly, go big or go home when it comes to pre launch marketing, you got to do all the things.

[00:57:54] Matt Cromwell: Um, and you're always going to be tempted to be like, yeah, I think this is going to be enough. It's not like you're going to do more. You're going to have to send more emails than you feel comfortable doing. You're going to write more blog posts than you think are appropriate. You're going to be loud and obnoxious.

[00:58:07] Matt Cromwell: And you're going to think that everybody says, just be quiet. I've heard enough about it. That's not the case. You have not reached enough people. Uh, you have not, uh, knocked on enough doors. Um, there's, there's really, when it comes to getting, uh, the word out about something that nobody knows is coming at all, um, there is no such thing as Transcribed Being too quiet.

[00:58:28] Matt Cromwell: Uh, excuse me, that's the wrong thing. There's no such thing as being too loud. There it is. Um, yeah, just get out there, go big or go home. Kevin, wrap us up with your best advice.

[00:58:41] Kevin Geary: Uh, well, I think you're, you know, what you guys both said is perfect. Um, it's, uh, fantastic and super valuable. I would say let's, let's just button it up with build a product that's worth believing in.

[00:58:52] Kevin Geary: Right. Uh, there's people that go into a market and they look for financial opportunity where, Oh, what can I sell? What can I sell? What are people going to buy? Right? No, no, no. Go into the market and understand the market and understand the people in the market that you're wanting to serve and build a product that is actually worth getting behind and worth being passionate about and worth getting, because then you'll fight for it and then everything that you do will be authentic.

[00:59:15] Kevin Geary: Now, people may not believe you, but, uh, you know, they'll come around. They always come around. Uh, but you know, a, the product that is worth. Something that actually has a legitimate mission behind it that actually has legitimate change and benefits behind it is always the way to go. If you, if you're thinking money at all, like, oh, what's the financial opportunity, you're already in the wrong direction.

[00:59:35] Kevin Geary: You're already in the wrong direction. Think about the user, think about what they're gonna, what they're gonna get from it and the mission that you're on in, in that industry, whatever that is.

[00:59:45] Matt Cromwell: Awesome. Thanks so much, Kevin. This has been a great conversation. Really appreciate your office authenticity and openness about everything about Etch.

[00:59:53] Matt Cromwell: Uh, folks, if you haven't signed up yet, uh, you might be too late, but go check out EtchWP.Com. Uh, and see what happens. Uh, the videos are going out this week. One of them tonight even. Um, and this is a wrap for us for this season. Uh, we have kind of Soft seasons. Uh, we're going to take a little bit of a break for a few weeks.

[01:00:13] Matt Cromwell: We're all four of us though all four co hosts are going to be at WordCamp US. So if you're going to be at WordCamp US, reach out to us. We would love to meet you and say hi and maybe take a picture or two. Uh, we love meeting folks who, who enjoy our show so much.

[01:00:29] Katie Keith: Yep. And, um, thank you to PostStatus for being our green room every week.

[01:00:34] Katie Keith: Like, subscribe, find us on WPProductTalk.com and share your favorite episodes with your colleagues. We'll see you next season.

[01:00:42] Matt Cromwell: Bye.

[01:00:43] Katie Keith: Bye.