How business partners help grow your WP product business

[00:00:00] Matt Cromwell: Hey there, Zach,

[00:00:49] do you see the request?

[00:01:07] Katie just sent you the co-host invite.

[00:01:14] Zach, I sent you a speaker approval thing. All right, there's Katie. Is

[00:01:21] Katie Keith: that working now? Can you hear me?

[00:01:24] Matt Cromwell: Yep.

[00:01:24] Katie Keith: Excellent.

[00:01:33] Zack Katz: Alright.

[00:01:35] Matt Cromwell: Hey there we are. Google. We are all here.

[00:01:40] Katie Keith: Perfect.

[00:01:44] Matt Cromwell: Um. We've actually already hit the hour. Um, and not seeing much folks here yet, but hopefully they'll be trickling in. Um, who knows in this, uh, post Elon Twitter environment. Who knows.

[00:02:02] Zack Katz: Yeah. Everybody's too busy reading about Elon's tweets and they they can't see the notification.

[00:02:09] Matt Cromwell: Exactly. Um, we'll find out, but.

[00:02:14] I'll kick it off. Hey everybody. Welcome, welcome. This is WP Product Talk and it's 2023 and it's our first episode of the year, and I'm excited for a lot of reasons. Um, one of 'em is because, uh, we're switching things up a little bit. Um, and, uh, Katie, Keith is joining us as our co-host for the next, like, uh, next little while.

[00:02:35] Katie, thanks so much for being here. Yeah,

[00:02:37] Katie Keith: and thanks for inviting me to be the co-host. Very exciting.

[00:02:42] Matt Cromwell: Yeah, tell us a little bit about who you are and what you do and all that kind of thing.

[00:02:46] Katie Keith: So, I'm Katie Keith, co-founder and CEO at Barn2 plugins. Um, we've been selling plugins since 2016, and we mostly sell WooCommerce, um, plugins, but we have other ones as well.

[00:03:01] So a range of different WordPress plugins.

[00:03:06] Matt Cromwell: Excellent. And I am Matt Cromwell and I'm one of the co-founders of Give WP and I am at Stellar WP doing marketing and operations and all that kind of fun stuff over there, overseeing a few different brands. Um, and um, we've been doing WP Product Talk now for, gosh, I think this is actually episode 13.

[00:03:27] Um, and this is where we talk about being WordPress product owners and business owners and how we grow and change and make mistakes and fix 'em and all that kind of thing. And every week we bring on a guest to talk about something that they're super passionate about or knowledgeable about. Um, and then sometimes we just bring Zach along because he's a good guy.

[00:03:49] Um,

[00:03:52] Zach is here with us today. Zach, tell everybody who you are, what you do.

[00:03:56] Zack Katz: Hey everybody. I am Zach Katz and I am the founder of Gravity Kit and Trusted login. And, uh, I am a co-owner, but a solo founder, and we'll talk about that today.

[00:04:09] Matt Cromwell: Exactly. Uh, before we jump into our subject, um, one thing we did, um, is I went and asked the Twitter people, um, you know, do you like audio only types of things or would you love instead to do YouTube streaming?

[00:04:25] And I gotta say YouTube streaming for me definitely takes a lot more effort. And so I was kind of like, I hope everybody loves the audio stuff. And Katie was like, oh no, I'm certain everybody wants to do YouTube. Sure enough, Katie was right. Um. And I was wrong. Um, the poll is really, really explicit. Let me see.

[00:04:45] Where did it go? I had a, there it is. Uh,

[00:04:47] Katie Keith: you didn't say though. You didn't say, I will abide by the results of this poll, which is the thing, isn't it?

[00:04:55] Matt Cromwell: That's true. That's good. Uh, I think, I think Katie's really good at reading legal documents. You know how to get outta stuff. I mean, I, it's an escape hatch.

[00:05:03] It's like, just 'cause that's what you all want doesn't mean that's what you get. Um, but 76% of people said yes, do YouTube streaming instead. Uh, and 23% said no. I like audio only. Uh, I see you all, you 23 percenters. Um, I. I kind of like it too. Um,

[00:05:22] Zack Katz: see, this is where the polling situation comes in though. Like online polling number one is, you know, horrible, you can't trust any online polls.

[00:05:29] But then with Twitter polling you're limited to what you just said and you can't have like, follow up polls. Like, what about Twitch? Uh, what about any other streaming video? Like we need to have some, some discussions about these future polls 'cause. That wasn't very rigorous. I, well, I thought that, I think there's opportunity thought

[00:05:46] Katie Keith: other way though, because by asking on Twitter, that's the people still using Twitter.

[00:05:51] So the fact that 76% of those people wanted off Twitter was interesting.

[00:05:57] Zack Katz: You didn't ask about virtual reality spaces, did you?

[00:06:01] Matt Cromwell: Yeah. I was not looking for even more difficulty. That's right. Uh, I mean, call me old school, but, oh my gosh. VR podcast. Okay. Um,

[00:06:14] Katie Keith: yeah, that's next. Yeah, I

[00:06:15] Matt Cromwell: don't know. We'll see. Yeah, maybe by then, um, yeah, we'll see.

[00:06:20] Uh, uh, we're looking into a couple different options, um, and I definitely want to be able to, uh, get this out to as many folks who are interested and, uh, there's definitely limitations to being on Twitter spaces even before the, the Elon situation. Um. But, um, uh, you know, let's, we'll see what happens. We'll keep everybody posted on how it goes.

[00:06:42] So,

[00:06:43] Katie Keith: yeah, I think the key is enough of that flexibility, isn't it? So they, we'll still be on Twitter, um, but people want other stuff too. Yeah,

[00:06:51] Matt Cromwell: yeah. We'll be, we'll try to be distributed everywhere in one form or another. Um, but, um, Alex, how it gets there and how we do the operations of it is another question.

[00:07:02] Um, cool. Well, like always. Um, I want to thank, uh, the WP Minute because every week I send them the recording of this Twitter space and they chop it up and put it on all the podcast areas for us. So shout out to them. Uh, if you do want to listen to these things later, that's a great place to find us. Um.

[00:07:21] Let's jump into our subject. Um, this week we're gonna talk about business partners, how business partners help grow your WP product business. Um, and Zach, I wanted to, uh, see if you would open us up with like what makes this subject so interesting. Like, why is it something that you think, uh, everyone should be talking about?

[00:07:43] Zack Katz: As a developer who has some artistic sense and is kind of good with accounting, but not great at it. I'm a jack of all trades kind of guy, and it is always been in the back of my mind. What would it have been like to have a partner who was good at things that I could. Work with who we, we would both be pushing the business forward, each using our core strengths instead of me trying to do everything and not doing it as well as I could.

[00:08:12] So that's always been in the back of my mind and, uh, I love being a, a solo founder, but I also feel like there's something I've missed by not participating and having a co-founder.

[00:08:27] Matt Cromwell: Interesting. I like it. I like that we get to have a little bit of a back and forth because Katie and I both have experience with partners.

[00:08:34] Um, my experience is a little different. Um, I'm not married to my business partner. That's a bit different. Uh, Katie, do you wanna talk a little bit about, uh, pros and cons with, uh, business partners partner?

[00:08:46] Katie Keith: Yep. So I run the company with my husband Andy, and it's always worked well in that we have different skill sets.

[00:08:55] So he is a software developer and my background is project management and marketing. So together, it's really helped us to grow the company as well as obviously distributing work and so on. So, um, if you have somebody, um, personally or professionally that ha has different skills from you that's complimentary, I think that's probably the best way of having a business partner.

[00:09:21] Um, so as well as that there's the capacity and the complimentary skills, but also it kind of allows you to, um, bounce ideas off somebody. Honestly, I don't think I would've had the confidence to start a company on my own. I needed somebody, I suppose I have a fear of failure, and it almost felt like less scary doing it for somebody else.

[00:09:43] So it wasn't all my fault if it went wrong, which is probably the wrong attitude, but that's how I felt. Um, yeah, but the other side of it, um, as well is that it allows you to kind of step up and down depending on your personal situation. So, for example, Andy's taking a step back at the moment to kind of, um, think about what he wants for his future direction and um, we've just moved house, so there's loads he wants to do personally as well.

[00:10:12] Um, because there's the two of us, then I can keep running the company. Um, vice versa if I ever needed some time out in the future as well.

[00:10:23] Matt Cromwell: Nice. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Uh, it very similar with me as well. When we founded Give wp, um, it was uh, three of us, me and Devon Walker, who, uh, a lot of you have know and have met, and we had a third partner named Jason. Um, and Jason covered finances and, um, Devin was more development product oriented and I was more support and marketing oriented.

[00:10:47] Um, Devin and I have a lot of overlap. I, I do also, of course have a lot of development skills and things like that, but, uh, it was easy to kind of delegate responsibilities, uh, in that way. I think for me, the biggest reason why I like the way, um, it went, um, was. What's the best way to say it? It's kind of like give wp, if I think just about, give WP today, give, WP is a product of the three of us, uh, and of course our employees.

[00:11:18] But like, it's not a simply just a mat thing, it's not simply a Devon thing. It's not simply a Jason thing. It's, it was more than the sum of our parts altogether. Um, and, um, there's times when I'm. Uh, when I, when I'm like, oh, if I was God of the company, I would do X, Y, and Z. And the truth is like, that might be a terrible idea.

[00:11:41] Um, and so being able to have partners who put you in check and, um, and um, and we get to like negotiate the path forward more or less, I feel like is, um, has been fruitful overall. Um, yeah, I think that would be my, my overall take on it, which seems to be. Hitting the sweet spot of what you were saying, Zach, is that about right?

[00:12:05] Zack Katz: Yeah, I also, there are, so it's really nice to be able to do what you want without any accountability and, you know, I, we we're a team of five people and if I, um, right now with Gravity Kit and, and when I say, you know, I think we should do this. I take into the team, I take the team's, you know, feedback into account, but I get to make the decision.

[00:12:29] But mm-hmm. I, I also hearing you talk about the collaborative nature and like you're all co-owners of the product and like in terms of like greater than the sum of your parts, that sounds great. And I'm thinking, what about all the times when I have not had the, uh, drive to, to do. The, I, I haven't felt like being held accountable.

[00:12:54] I don't know. Mm-hmm. It's been nice to, uh, do it my own way and not have to worry about getting pushback, uh, especially from people who could, you know, vote me out or had control over me in a way. So, mm-hmm. I think there is a level of, um, fear for the amount of human interaction that would be necessary, and like the negotiations and.

[00:13:19] And compromises. Like I, I, I like that I'm in charge and, and I like the lack of conflict. Mm-hmm. Because I'm conflict averse, so I, it's all internal conflict and like managing the team, but I'm in charge and I do like that. But I also, once again, it feels like it would be a beautiful thing to. To have partners, but boy, it's probably a lot less drama to not have partners.

[00:13:50] Matt Cromwell: I think there is a balance too, in terms of like, because we each had our own kind of areas of expertise, like if it came down to a major support decision, I definitely had more influence over the direction for that one. Um, it doesn't mean that I might not get checked or we might not discuss back and forth a little bit, but it was often like, all right, well at the end of the day, Matt, it's your choice.

[00:14:17] Um, and, um, I, I think that that's a, a good balance to keep in mind too, that it's not like that every single issue has to be completely negotiated and things like that. Does that ring true for you too?

[00:14:30] Katie Keith: Yeah. It would be interesting to hear from anybody who's listening, who has a business partner with the same skillset as them and how they manage it.

[00:14:39] Uh, because I think that is really important. Like people often ask me, for example, uh, how do you work with your husband? How do you cope with that? And uh, well, we generally say, well, we actually don't overlap. All the time. We have whole days and so on where we're not talking about work. Or we might do things without consulting the other because we have completely distinct roles within the company, and that makes it a lot easier than, um, having, being head to head in a more potential conflicting situation where you have the same responsibilities.

[00:15:15] Matt Cromwell: Absolutely. I mean, now that you mentioned. Everyone else who's listening in, uh, folks, if you do have comments or questions or anything like to chime in in any way, uh, feel free to, uh, to, uh, use the little, uh. Speech bubble on the, on the app here, and you can comment, um, or just tweet out with the hashtag WP product talk.

[00:15:35] And I'm paying attention and looking at those tweets. Uh, we're we, we will definitely, uh, address it, uh, if you bring it up. So, um, Zach, uh, I'd love to hear from you on, um, is. Is it like sometimes what Have you talked with other folks who are solopreneurs doing it on their own and are absolutely happy doing it that way?

[00:15:59] Like are it like it's not for everybody to have business partners more or less, right. Right.

[00:16:05] Zack Katz: And I, I think a lot of the reason it's been good for me is that I do have, my wife Juniper is also a 50% owner in the business. She has a different set of skills. She's very smart in so many ways that I'm not, and so I can bounce things off of her.

[00:16:23] So I do kind of have the benefit of some of that. But I think regardless of whether or not you're solopreneur or a partner, uh, I think it's important to have somebody, uh, to bounce ideas off of and to, to, um, to have, be either a mentor or, um, a good friend who has experience so. If you're considering, um, starting your own business and wanna do it yourself, that's great, but make sure you find a community of people that can support you because it is a lonely trip when you're, uh, building your product and it's not quite out yet, and you need to, you know, come up with a product launch strategy and that meanwhile your accounting is all messed up.

[00:17:05] And like, it's, there's so much to take care of that having, um, a support network is, I think. Essential, regardless of whether you do it yourself or not.

[00:17:15] Matt Cromwell: Yeah. Can you tell us a little bit more about that? Like what do you do in terms of support network personally?

[00:17:22] Zack Katz: Well, uh, Katie and I are in a mastermind together, which is really nice.

[00:17:26] Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Uh, so every other week we. Um, we have a Zoom call and we discuss things that are going on with our businesses and also some, you know, personal challenges sometimes. And, um, just saying like, Hey, what are your sales like this, this past couple weeks? 'cause mine are either up or mine are either down.

[00:17:45] It, it helps give you a sense of how you're doing and, uh, encouragement. Um, Katie just helped me identify like, oh yeah, I should, I should, uh, really tackle this problem head on instead of just worrying about it.

[00:18:00] Katie Keith: Well, we talk every day. You don't, so

[00:18:02] Zack Katz: having that kind of slack,

[00:18:03] Katie Keith: it's like, it's literally every day that we're bouncing ideas of some sorts.

[00:18:09] Zack Katz: Yeah. And I do know people that do it themselves, but I only know them because they're in a network with me that I get to communicate with them. So. Um, if anybody's out there in the wilderness, uh, come, come to post status at the very least, uh, WP Minute, join the WP Minute community.

[00:18:29] Matt Cromwell: Mm-hmm. Um,

[00:18:29] Zack Katz: there are so many great WordPress communities, uh, with people doing really interesting stuff who have so much experience and.

[00:18:36] You know, introduce yourself, say, hi, I'm working on this. I'd love to discuss X, Y, Z. Can we, can we set a time? Uh, and can I buy you a coffee? And the answer to that generally is don't worry about it. Um, I'm happy to talk for free, you know? Mm-hmm.

[00:18:51] Matt Cromwell: Hmm. Absolutely. Nice. Uh, Matt Pritchett is listening in and he just said, well, he is from Saturday Drive.

[00:18:58] He said, we've got the best of both worlds. I have silent partners who are available for questions and coaching, but leave the decisions largely up to me with guardrails. Um, that sounds interesting. Uh, what's your take on that, Katie?

[00:19:12] Katie Keith: Yeah, that makes sense. So for the big things, um, you have, uh, that extra a guardrail as he put it, uh, when, um, so we, we would do that as well.

[00:19:22] Um, Andy and I, like I, we just had a conversation about that today, some bigger decisions with the team needed making that even if one person's allocated, it's useful to have that extra sign off from somebody, but generally you give them that freedom.

[00:19:36] Matt Cromwell: Mm-hmm. Nice. I think for those out there, uh, pivoting just a little bit for those out there who are saying, I, I've had a, a couple folks say to me that they really want to have business partners, but they don't know how to find them.

[00:19:55] Um, or like. You know how to make that happen in one form or another. Um, I, I think it, it's pretty convenient if, if you're already married to them, that's pretty great. Um, but, um, for me, um, uh, Devin and I knew each other through our local San Diego meetup, um, and, um. That honestly is a great place to get to know, um, uh, folks who you might wanna be business partner partners with at this stage in life.

[00:20:23] Devon is in San Diego still, and I'm in Germany actually. And, um, we still, uh, operate on a day-to-day basis, uh, working things out together for all of our. Different stellar WP responsibilities now. Um, uh, but in the early days we were in an office together in San Diego really hammering things out and sweating over code and worrying about customers and things like that together.

[00:20:47] Um, and I, I think that that closeness, uh, in the office together in the very beginning was really, really, really helpful and necessary for us in the beginning. And it wouldn't have happened without, um, our local meetup, honestly. Um, so just another reason to go to your local Word camp. Uh, attend your local meetups.

[00:21:06] Get to know people in your, in your town who are passionate about WordPress and solving problems. 'cause um, you might not, you, one day they might be your next business partner. Who knows?

[00:21:17] Zack Katz: And I've heard this and I obviously don't have, well I do have experience with, uh, this aspect, but it's, I've heard that if you partner with somebody, you should fall in love with them.

[00:21:29] That, that, that's an so that you, like, getting along is great, but loving them as a human is a really important thing because it's gonna be trials and tribulations, so,

[00:21:38] Matt Cromwell: mm-hmm.

[00:21:39] Zack Katz: Mm-hmm. A good friend is, uh, is I think probably an essential part of it. Would you agree?

[00:21:46] Katie Keith: Yeah. It's about that tolerance, isn't it?

[00:21:49] So, uh, if you have some sort of personal relationship, whether it's friendship or whatever, then you think about them as people and their needs and what they're going on in, in their life at the same time as work and why that might affect their work. And people can step up and step down as, uh, we talked about earlier.

[00:22:08] And if it's. If it's just a purely professional relationship, then your expectations of each other might not always be realistic, for example.

[00:22:17] Matt Cromwell: Mm-hmm. Hmm. That's a good one. Yeah, I mean, I think, um, Devin and I in particular, we definitely are friends. We love hanging out and having a good time, and in the office in the early days, we would often spend.

[00:22:31] Fridays after work going into downtown San Diego and grabbing some food and some drinks and, and just getting to know each other better. I think that was really vital and important. Um, I think. I think why that was so significant was because, yeah, for sure, sometimes we disagreed about stuff and sometimes we disagreed strongly about stuff, but because we also had such a strong trust, um, in each other and of each other, um, we knew that we both were trying to do what we thought was best.

[00:23:01] So there was a definitely a system of. Trust and, and, and sending out faith to each other, um, to, to make sure, um, uh, you know, to keep us from just being like, ah, this is bullshit and moving on. Um, and what

[00:23:15] Zack Katz: did you do contractually, because I, from my side, I think that that would be one of the things that I would wanna make sure to have dialed in immediately is having the corporate structure.

[00:23:25] Right. Uh, I know for me, Juniper and I work, we both are shareholders in Cat's web services, which is the parent s corp. Um, and if we wanted to bring on a partner, we could just by is issuing some shares and we have it structured in a, in a ways that that works. Um, in terms of your partnership experiences, Katie and Matt, like what, how do you legally have it structured?

[00:23:50] Katie Keith: Well, we're a, um, UK company, which I, um, and it's a legal company and we have 50%, uh, shares each. So that's similar. And then again, if we did want to bring in somebody else or sell part of it or whatever, then you do it by the shares, um, just as you said. Um, so that's how we do it.

[00:24:13] Matt Cromwell: Hmm. We had, uh, an LLC, um, and, um, we all had a different portion of the LLC.

[00:24:21] Um, but the thing that I think was really significant and important in that, uh, agreement was that each of us was required to be contributing, um, work to the company in one form or another. Um, in order to to be a partner, you had to be actually working on the business in one form or another. Um, and I think that that was actually really important.

[00:24:43] 'cause I, I definitely have, um, run into other businesses who had like, um, almost like consulting type partners or things like that, um, who I feel like have often been problematic. Um, especially when, um, the business, uh, decides that they want to sell, for example. And the, and the partner who's been mostly just consulting on the side decides that's not a good idea.

[00:25:07] Um, that, that can be kind of like a roadblock in many ways. Um, so I, I, I liked the requirement to be in the business personally, and that's not for everybody, but I liked it.

[00:25:19] Katie Keith: Yeah, that's always going to be a potential issue as to whether people want to go in different directions, whether they're active partners or not.

[00:25:27] So let's say that one wanted to sell and the other didn't, for example. That's pretty fundamental, isn't it? Um, so, um, by having a business partner, there is always that potential for wanting the bigger picture things to be different.

[00:25:42] Matt Cromwell: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. I will say, Zach, one thing I've thought about personally, um, is if I ever did set up a, a, a business again that, um, I would definitely, um, get a partner.

[00:25:56] Um, and I always thought like a fun mix, um, of ownership would be 45. 45 for the two partners. The rest shared among the employees. Um, so that essentially when the two partners fully agree and everything, then, then everything goes as as intended. But if they don't and they're really at an impasse, then uh, employees get to be the tiebreaker essentially.

[00:26:21] Um, that's one kind of, um, idea I've seen floated around a bit. Um, and I think that's really easy with an S-corp in particular, being able to divvy shares to employees, for example, right.

[00:26:32] Zack Katz: Right. And I think that, I think there, one of the big advice items that I would have is to get a good structure. It's so important and mm-hmm.

[00:26:45] Um, make sure that you have these kind of potentialities, um, figured out, like what you think you might wanna do in the future. And, 'cause I know that, uh, I, I know somebody who's. Currently locked into one legal structure and they wish that they weren't because it made their tax situation moving internationally really complicated.

[00:27:03] And um, so that's one thing. But, but the key, the big key, the bigger issue is starting, like if you gotta start as a sole proprietor, start as a sole proprietor. Um, 'cause don't let partnership and whether you can always bring a partner on leader. But if you don't start your business, it doesn't matter. And if you need a partner to get you over that line, like Katie said, um, then, then look for a partner first.

[00:27:30] But, uh, there are lots, if you Google find a business partner online, there are so many services right now where you can enter, you know, get to meet partners and talk about a potential business, um, partnerships. But getting the product out there, having people use it, um, dipping your toes in, I think is the way to go for, for me.

[00:27:49] Matt Cromwell: Mm-hmm. I like that. I wanna pivot over into our next segment, which, um, we call story time. Um, I'd love to hear some like, um, detailed examples of a time when this really, uh, this subject was really significant or important in your, in your business or in your choices that you made. So perhaps it was that your partner really enabled something awesome to happen for you.

[00:28:14] Katie, maybe, or Zach, maybe. Uh, there's something where. Um, you really found that, um, that, uh, maybe there was a problem, like you really wish you had a partner in one certain sense, or maybe you were like, oh, thank goodness I don't have a partner right now because this is great. Uh, whatever the detailed story might be.

[00:28:33] Um, that's story time. Let's share who's up first. Uh,

[00:28:37] Katie Keith: yeah, sure. So, um, a fairly recent story is, um, one thing Andy's good at doing is coming up with the more strategic ideas. I'm not particularly an ideas person. I'm good at getting stuff done, and when I've got the plan, I'll see it through and make it happen.

[00:28:55] Um, but sometimes he just comes along randomly with these good ideas. Uh, which I would never have thought of. Um, one example from a couple of months ago is regarding the direction of our blog. Um, and I'm entirely in charge of marketing and that's my role, but one day he randomly says, uh, how about we expand the blog into a much more general resource about WordPress and Blue Commerce?

[00:29:22] And that will help. To raise our profile and, um, we can, uh, promote our plugins and other people's plugins, do partnerships with people, um, get affiliate revenue and, um, generally increase our domain authority just by growing our own blog outside of just our products. And I would never have thought of that on my own.

[00:29:43] And so then since then I've thought, yeah, that's a great idea and I've taken it and run with it. And uh, we launched that in January and um, we are already pretty much tripling our output of content and it's going really well. We are getting lots more newsletter subscribers visits to our website and so on.

[00:30:01] Um, and that's not an idea that I would've had on my own, even though that's my role. Mm-hmm.

[00:30:09] Matt Cromwell: Nice. Love it,

[00:30:11] Zack Katz: Zach. Well, I'm, I'm trying to think of a good specific example. Um, and I'm, I'm coming up at a loss right now, so I could No worries. What about, what about you?

[00:30:26] Matt Cromwell: Yeah, happy to, happy to be there. I'll partner up with you real quick and give you some space.

[00:30:32] Um, um, my story is, um. Back when we were developing what came to be known as WP Business Reviews. Um, I won't go in tons of detail about this part of it, but my, my, my partner Devin, he was leading the project, um, development and all, and the website and all that kind of thing. He really ran into a really hard and difficult, uh, stage in his life, um, and needed to check out for a while for about six months, honestly.

[00:31:02] Um, and, um, at that time, um, I was able to, to step in and it, it, it was so important and significant for him at that time. I was like, Hey man, take the time. Take everything you need. Um, I, I totally get it. Um, and we can keep things running no problem. And, um, I was able to start. Mixing up my responsibilities and help oversee development of the product.

[00:31:26] At that time, we had a great developer working on it, uh, which made it easy and the website and things like that. Um, but I honestly feel like if Devin was, this is not supposed to be a nightmare scenario, Zach, I promise I'm not, I'm not like pointing this at you in any way, but I think that at that time if, if Devin was alone, then like the business would've like.

[00:31:48] Come to a halt at that time, it would've been really challenging and difficult. Um, um, so having, um, backup, uh, to be able to keep things running and moving was really important at that time. So, uh, I, that's the one that stands out in my mind really strong.

[00:32:05] Zack Katz: And for me, I run Gravity Kit and I also run Trusted Login.

[00:32:10] And when I was developing Trusted Login, initially I hired somebody from Codeable, uh, to help me develop it. And, uh, he had experience also with marketing and bringing products to launch. And, uh, he was a really good person to work with. And we were in talks to do a partnership, uh, because I really wanted to have somebody who was focused on trusted login so that.

[00:32:34] Uh, the burden wasn't on me to switch context between the two businesses and, and push both forward. 'cause I'm not very good at project management, which would be an amazing thing for a partner to come in and help with. Um, but the, so we were in talks with trusted login, uh, and I couldn't afford to partner with him because he wanted too much of the business.

[00:32:57] I didn't want to give that value away. I didn't feel like it was the right fit and I really wanted to, but I just, it didn't make sense at the time. Mm. And I still re, I still regret not going for it, just saying like, whatever, like, let's try this out. But I also still think it wasn't the right deal structure for me.

[00:33:18] So, you know, this conversation. Maybe I should go back in the hunt for the right partner for trusted login, for example. Like, it's not too late in that situation either.

[00:33:31] Matt Cromwell: Yeah. I, uh, you, you, uh, used a trigger word for me. Um, I don't want to dig in too deep, but do you really regret it? Do you really regret it or is it just kind of like, uh, maybe that could have been better?

[00:33:45] Zack Katz: Well, because the way I work is so, um. Distracted. I, I, I really do have problems with focus and, uh, consistency. And thankfully the team with, uh, gravity kit and, and trusted login, like I, I work with developers, uh, on both and, and content creators and support people. Like they're great and I'm not great at project management, so thankfully they're able to keep things moving and it doesn't mean that, um, that it's been completely.

[00:34:19] Uh, static and, and like empty. But I do regret it. Uh, I, but I also don't resent my choices. I don't know, it's,

[00:34:35] Matt Cromwell: I

[00:34:35] Zack Katz: would like to see like, there's no way to know how it would've worked out, but yeah, it still feels like there. I would, that trusted login as a product would've been further along. Yeah. Even if I would have way less, you know, uh, stake in the, in the product.

[00:34:50] Matt Cromwell: Mm-hmm.

[00:34:50] Yeah. Interesting. Interesting. Yeah. I, I feel like as, as product owners, business owners, there's so much on the line, um, with so many of the smallest decisions and, uh, and the medium and the large decisions of course as well, and regret is just part of the landscape. Um, you know, I, like I said, that's a trigger word for me because I don't know why, but with my personality regret is something that I.

[00:35:19] I either just simply refuse to do it or I refuse to acknowledge that it exists in my, in my, in my feelings. Um, but, um, but it, it is definitely, as a product owner, it's, it's something that I've had to wrestle with more and more and more. And it's a hard one. Um, well, I,

[00:35:38] Zack Katz: it's like a sense of loss of the potential.

[00:35:41] And mm-hmm. Like when I don't invest in, um, for example, a project manager, uh, hiring a project manager five years ago.

[00:35:51] Matt Cromwell: Mm-hmm. And that,

[00:35:53] Zack Katz: thinking back on that decision is a kind of, uh, business nostalgia. Yeah,

[00:35:58] Matt Cromwell: yeah. Lessons learned kind of scenario. Mm-hmm. Or I wish I had done that better. Um, yep, yep. Yep. Well, we are about, uh, 10 minutes from time and, um, one thing I like to, uh, wrap up with, uh, always is.

[00:36:16] Best advice to any new, um, plugin shop owners out there who are getting started, um, most likely they're solopreneurs. Um, or, um, or just thinking about, um, starting their own plugin business in one way or another. Uh, what is your best advice for them, whether it's like stay on your own or whether it's, uh, partner up or not?

[00:36:36] Um, what's your best advice? What would you say to those folks? Katie, do you wanna kick us off?

[00:36:41] Katie Keith: Sure. So my advice would be to consider your own skillset and what the gaps are, and then think about how to fill those gaps. A partner might be a way to do that or, but there are other ways as well, such as hiring people or increasing your own skills in that area.

[00:37:02] Uh, so that's a way to think about it. It's about filling gaps and partners are good in many ways, particularly when you're starting out because. Well, you don't have to pay them. So, um, that you have equally at stake in the business together. So as the revenue grows, you can then start paying yourselves together.

[00:37:22] Whereas it's quite common that you wouldn't be able to afford to hire somebody straight away if you are bootstraps. So a partner cannot help you get started because they've got that added motivation and they only take financially when the business could afford it. But it's definitely not the only way.

[00:37:41] Matt Cromwell: Nice. I like that.

[00:37:44] Zack Katz: Zach,

[00:37:45] Matt Cromwell: what's your advice?

[00:37:46] Zack Katz: All right, uh, so I agree with Katie on, you know, finding skill sets and figuring out which is which. If that's something you're not comfortable doing, then you might actually need a partner. Uh, like if you're stuck there, uh, then it's a sign that you either need a partner or somebody to help you strategize.

[00:38:07] Um, my, my advice would be. Uh, a get therapy because business is a reflection of yourself. Um, like everything in life is a reflection of yourself in a way, uh, the way you experience it. So, um, getting therapy is a great way to help your business grow, um, and hire a lawyer when you're ready to bring on a partner or, uh, to grow past the size of a hobby.

[00:38:34] 'cause, um, getting the right business structure and the right legal protections. Uh, by insurance, by, by the way, like hire a lawyer, get therapy and buy insurance.

[00:38:43] Matt Cromwell: Mm-hmm. Uh,

[00:38:44] Zack Katz: would be my advices.

[00:38:46] Matt Cromwell: Yeah, that's really solid for sure. Um, yeah, I would say, um, go to your local meetups and create reasons to, uh, work with other people, like start small, um, have a, maybe a particular client, like maybe it's like, oh, I'm gonna build out a really big WooCommerce site.

[00:39:04] And, uh, I'd love to have somebody come alongside with me. Just be like, Hey, I'd love to go 50 50 on this one client with you. Um. And, um, use those as like a launching pad for seeing whether or not you like working with this person or not. Like, you don't have to go all all in. You can start with little things, you know.

[00:39:22] Um, and, um, I'll just re echo, um, everything what Zach said about, uh, lawyers, um, and therapy. Um, like all of those, those are like requirements. Um, do not. Get a partner without a lawyer.

[00:39:40] Zack Katz: Mm-hmm. So their job is to think of all the worst case scenarios that you don't wanna talk about with your partner, but it's important to hash out.

[00:39:48] Matt Cromwell: Yep. Absolutely. Excellent. Well, uh, at this stage we are going to be back next week, and I'm gonna just say it's gonna be a surprise probably to everyone, including Katie and I, whoever we're gonna be having on as guest hosts because we we're still working out the schedule right now. Uh, but we will be on next week for sure.

[00:40:09] Um, on looking forward to it again, as always. And where will we be? Katie? Any other thought?

[00:40:14] Katie Keith: Where will we be? Yeah.

[00:40:17] Matt Cromwell: It's gonna be a surprise who's gonna be on the show, what the format's gonna be, is there gonna be video? I got a lot of work to do. Uh, any other thoughts or comments, Katie?

[00:40:30] Katie Keith: Um, well, um, we've kind of got a short list for the next few guests, but we still, um, are putting that together, as you say.

[00:40:38] So if anybody's interested, then they're welcome to get in touch with, uh, their topic ideas that they would be good. Yeah. Um, have interesting things to say about.

[00:40:49] Matt Cromwell: Yeah, absolutely. Reach out if you got ideas. We're looking for 'em. Uh, we've got some good, uh, um, folks that we ha are gonna be reaching out to and, um, it's gonna be great.

[00:40:58] So, oh, I do have

[00:41:00] Zack Katz: one more thing, uh, yep. That I wanna recommend is I've had some really good luck talking to professionals on Clarity fm. Oh, nice. When I have a problem that is business related or strategy related, and I don't wanna hire somebody, I'D for it, I, I just want advice. I don't really know anybody in my network that could answer the questions effectively.

[00:41:24] I go to clarity and hire, uh, somebody who's got tons of experience and. Pay a lot for it, but I get a lot of value out of it. So if you, if you wanna ask somebody with lots of experience, you can hire them on clarity by the minute.

[00:41:38] Katie Keith: Do you have an example?

[00:41:41] Zack Katz: Uh, for one you can talk to Chris Lema. Uh, if, if you don't know him personally, that's a way you could get in touch with him.

[00:41:46] Uh, he's always got incredible insights. Um, I do, I did also talk to a couple different people about. Um, potential acquisitions that we were thinking about making and, uh, how to structure them and, um, different strategy costs and opportunities that would reveal themselves in, in the different pathways. Uh, because Juniper was busy getting a PhD and I needed somebody to bounce stuff off of, so I hired somebody.

[00:42:19] Matt Cromwell: Nice. That's a great tip. Really good one. Cool. Well, thanks so much everybody for being here and, uh, have a good week. We'll, uh, see and or hear or something everybody again

[00:42:32] Katie Keith: next week. See

[00:42:33] Matt Cromwell: you next week. Thanks for having me on. Yeah. Bye.