[00:00:00] Zack Katz: Hey everybody. Welcome to WP Product Talk. I'm Zack Katz and I am the founder of Trusted Login and Gravity Kit.

[00:00:08] Katie Keith: And I'm Katie Keith from Bantu,

[00:00:12] Zack Katz: and today we're talking about elevating your WordPress product and brand and the art of public relations.

[00:00:20] Matt Cromwell: This is WP Product Talk, a place where every week we bring you insights, product marketing, business management, and growth, customer experience, product development, and more.

It's your go-to podcast. For WordPress product owners buy WordPress product owners and now enjoy the show.

[00:00:49] Katie Keith: The effective public relations isn't just about visibility. It's the key to building long-term trust and credibility, turning your WordPress product into a recognized and respected brand. And that's why we've invited Adam Weeks today. So, hey Adam. Hello. Uh, could you introduce yourselves and tell us a bit about what you do?

[00:01:12] Adam Weeks: Absolutely. Well, thank you so much for having me on. It is quite an honor. I've been following you guys and, uh, yeah, I'm, I'm in good company. You guys are doing, doing great. Here on WP Product Talk. Uh, so quick about me. My background is in education. I've been a school teacher, a school principal. And oftentimes in a private school.

And with that there was marketing and PR always involved, and I was always interested in that part of the business. WordPress has always been that thing in the background. Been a, been a bit of a nerd my, my whole life. And it was the kinda like, Hey, the school needs a website. Well let's build it in WordPress, um, projects here and there.

So WordPress has been that. Kind of constant thing for me, but very periphery until a few years ago when my friend Jonathan Wald invited me to come and, uh, help him out at post status little place called post Status and yeah, helped out at post status. I'm still actually helping out at post status, Michelle for Shed and I are planning a.

Um, a, a career summit, uh, for post status coming up in a, in a couple of months. Um, always, uh, always there. So yeah, you can find me at post status. Also helped out Bob with do the woo. And the idea was for both of them was this, um, like helping to bring in partners and sponsors. And in the course of that and talking to people who were wanting exposure, which is why you would sponsor something, I.

Uh, CIR Influence was born. So I'm a co-founder of CIR Influence, which is marketing and public relations. I still wear a post status hat, uh, from time, you know, still doing that and do the woo. I'm very supportive. But yeah, now, uh, doing Sir Influence, thank you for, for having me on.

[00:03:07] Zack Katz: Thanks for coming on, and I, uh, I find it fascinating that your, uh, entry into WordPress is, I think, like so many people's is from using it and then becoming part of the community.

I, I

[00:03:19] Adam Weeks: love that. Yeah, no, it seems to be a common story like, Hey, this thing is really useful. Uh, wait, you mean there's things like word camps, like what? I don't, what's, there's a whole ecosystem and community of people. I had no idea. And yeah. Uh, post status was kind of just jumping off the, the deep end into the WordPress community.

It's, it's been, it's been fantastic.

[00:03:43] Zack Katz: So we're talking about PR today, and we're talking about it from, uh, for product owners, which is what the podcast is for. But, you know, from your entry into WordPress, uh, from education, how would you say the PR is for the WordPress project itself? Like, what, what are, what are we doing right?

What are we doing? Uh, not as well as we could do. Ooh,

[00:04:03] Adam Weeks: that's a, that's a good question. I was. A, an in, I was invited to the community summit at WordCamp, uh, US this year or last year, I guess recently. Uh, it's been, yeah, time's flying by at Word Camp US and that was one of the discussions is how do we position I.

WordPress to different communities such as, you know, big industry, you know, enterprise level. How do they see us? Um, and one of the things I think that is, it's, it's difficult to remember what it's like to not know something. And I'll preface that with when you're in the WordPress community. WordPress, WordPress, WordPress, of course, it's WordPress.

For many people like, oh yeah, I've heard of WordPress, but we forget what it's like to not be in that community. And with all things, the importance of being consistent, branding yourself in a way that is recognizable, and I feel that WordPress. Uh, being this volunteer yet enterprise, kind of this mix is unlike really any other community industry that I, that I know of.

I would say it's doing well, but. One of the things, for instance, that I brought up is that if you go on YouTube right now, maybe I, I am, it's not correct, and you try and search, how do you contribute to WordPress? 'cause when I don't know how to do something, I, I go to YouTube and I look for a video on how to change my car's oil or, or something like that.

But when I do the same thing, when I look on YouTube, the video that was there was like a 58 long, 58 minute, um, you know, from someone who. It was this long thing. It was like, we, we can do better. We, if people want to contribute to be a part of this community, there are more things we can do to intentionally bring them in.

And I think that's where we're lacking.

[00:06:10] Matt Cromwell: I.

[00:06:11] Adam Weeks: And

[00:06:12] Zack Katz: one of the things that I think we should probably frame, and Adam, I'm, I'm unclear on this, so maybe you could help, is Sure, where is the line, what is the difference between PR and marketing and can you, can you help, uh, draw that line for us and. What, as a product owner, how do I think of these things differently?

So the

[00:06:30] Adam Weeks: line is blurring more and more. There used to be a day and age where you had a PR firm and they would write press releases and they would try to get the press releases to all the news newspapers and news stations. And that was kind of how you, you thought of pr. The definition is a little bit of.

Earned media versus paid media. Advertising was paid media. That was when you had your commercial on the tv, um, or an ad in the newspaper or the magazine. Earned media was when, Hey, we need a subject matter expert. We're gonna interview so and so about this topic, and they want to do that interview because, oh, when they happen to work at.

X, Y, Z corporation. So that's historically been how we often think of PR earned media versus paid media. We are in a new world of so many types of media outlets. We're on a relatively new one right now. This podcast, video live, YouTube. This is, this is not something that the marketing advertising industry has had to think about for very long and.

So there is, there isn't a lot of pure PR anymore. What we discuss is that there's gonna be a mix, and as we talk to product owners and anybody specifically in WordPress, is that, I like to think of it in terms of a conversation. You can't only have, uh, you can't only give and you can't only take, so for instance, we're talking right now, and if I only just ask you questions, ask, ask, ask, what do you want?

What do you want? That's not a good conversation. If you tell me a story, I. And then I try to tell my own story. And then you tell a story. We're kind of one-upping each other and there's not a give and a take and a conversation. Right. I was, uh, kind of an aside, I actually had a date night with my daughter, Viviana.

Viviana is nine years old. She just turned nine. And we were talking about how to be a good conversationalist. And a good conversationalist finds a balance between, okay, I'm going to give something of myself. I'm gonna tell you a story or tell you what happened today, and then I'm gonna take, I'm gonna ask you a question about yourself or how the day went.

And so Vivian and I were practicing this during our little date night. The same can be said for trying to. Talk to your community about your product. It is not only give, give, give, give. Let me tell you, let me tell you. Let me tell you. It's not take, take, take. Hey, what do you want? What do you want? It's, it's the give and the take In order to do that.

When you're talking on podcasts and paid Google search and Facebook ads, there is the give and the take, and that's how I see the importance of a good overall marketing strategy is balancing that give and that take.

[00:09:42] Zack Katz: And in, uh, in terms of giving and taking, Katie, I'd love to hear, uh, why this topic matters for product businesses.

I'd love to hear your take on this.

[00:09:52] Katie Keith: Yeah, so, um, public relations is an interesting one because it's not something that we typically think of as a strand of our marketing strategy, but really it is relevant because it's about how the wider world sees your company. And, um, I actually used to have a public relations job pre WordPress, where I did the PR for a company which was much more traditional.

It was in like the, um, early two thousands was about press releases and trying to get in mainstream media and things like that, which isn't really relevant for WordPress companies. But public relationships, uh, public relations within the WordPress industry is relevant. Um, and like you were saying about the giving and the taking, um.

So, for example, you might, um, get interviews and things where you are sharing your experiences, uh, and also getting exposure that's give and take on things like, um, WP Tavern and other high profile WordPress blogs. And that's, we don't think of it as that. We might think about it as. Profile building, link building, um, various things, but we don't think of it as pr.

Um, and it is PR, isn't it? Mm-Hmm. Uh, so I think we need to think about that and the implications of that and the purpose of this and what the potential benefits might be, uh, because it's not something that's talked about enough within WordPress product companies.

[00:11:15] Adam Weeks: Right. I think a lot of times people are doing PR and they don't know they're doing pr.

For instance, the post data Slack is very, there's a lot of people talking about different things happening and every time you are giving of your expertise, when someone asks a question or you chime in on a topic, that is kind of a micro form of pr. And in our community, WordPress is big, 43% of the internet.

Yeah, but there's probably, at the high end, maybe, maybe 10,000 people that actually care about WordPress. Uh, you know, and how many, you know, it's, it's not, uh, it's not a ton of people. And so if you go on a podcast like this, or you're having a conversation in post data Slack or on social medias, or even in the comments on the tavern, that's, that's a great place.

To have conversations and to elevate your own brand. And the importance that I wanna bring here is, is authenticity. Being authentic about it, is that if you. If you do it in such a way as like, oh, well if I, if I say this here, then I'm gonna get something back that feels transactional. But if you are truly coming from a, of a place of I want to help others and maybe my product that I've spent a lot of time working on, the reason I created this product was that there was a problem.

Usually people create products in WordPress because it was something that they, that didn't exist, that they wanted to exist. They, they were working on a website and this thing doesn't, man, I made this thing and you know what? It was a little bit of polishing. I can turn this into something I can sell.

There's a problem. Um, and this is something I would love your, your audience to think about when they're thinking about their, their own product and how they discuss it. What's the problem? What you do to solve the problem and how it feels once the problem is solved. So that's kind of this rhythm that people can take.

What's the problem? How, what do you do to solve the problem and how it feels once the problem is solved?

[00:13:31] Zack Katz: So that's one aspect of it, and that's the, and you know, the aspect from a product owner standpoint, but there's also, uh, the media company like post status in this. Mm-Hmm. In this case, you as post status would have your own needs and re uh, that need to be filled.

Like you have a certain amount of content you put on, put out, you want to enhance your brand, you want to make look good to your readers and, and your users. Um, so how do you as a product donor add value to other people while still saying, Hey, I have this new shiny product or this new feature that I really want to promote.

How do you find what matters to each organization? And I. And target your press release or whatever it is to, to that either journalist or organization that you're trying to

[00:14:18] Adam Weeks: promote in. That's a great question. And what it comes down to is this term, know thy self, like, know yourself really well. Know the, the value that you bring, and I think that, you know, and, and being consistent with that on the other end.

Know what, what is post status looking for? So if you kind of, you know, try to dissect it. Post status needs a few things. One, they need good content that is coming from our community, right? They need people who are experts and they're trying to find the stories. They're trying to find something to talk about that their audience cares about, and that's where you have an opportunity to say.

Um, to, to build those relations relationships, talk to who the editors and who are, uh, posting at post status and offer to be helpful. That's, that's a really thing is, and, and being, I. Bold enough to say my opinion matters and I think I have something to share. Making sure that you truly do you, you know, something, you, you built this product, you built this thing, you have an expertise.

Be willing to jump into the conversation, but recognizing, alright, what is post status trying to do? They don't want to be a platform for people just to promote their product, right? If you want to be direct. You offered a sponsor post status and or a podcast like this or whatever, these, these different things.

If you want to be clear and direct that's advertising, Hey, buy my thing. It's great if you want to grow your influence, if you want to grow your ex being an expert in that area. People will start to be attracted to you in what you do. It's like, oh, I keep seeing this person show up in post status, slack or post status here or on the tavern or these different places.

And then what's great about that is that people come to you because you have elevated your own personal brand.

[00:16:31] Katie Keith: That's true, but it makes it hard to evaluate the ROI. Is it worth the time that you're spending in that?

[00:16:39] Adam Weeks: Ooh, what a great question. Uh, it's, it's, it's because it's impossible to answer 100% and I'll, let me, before we had Google AdSense and Facebook, all these metrics we didn't use to measure everything.

It was very common for a company to put an ad in a newspaper, a magazine. Even a commercial on TV and have no real good idea. Exactly. You don't get clicks from a commercial on tv. Like that's not how that works. And there's a bit of trust in that. If I am visible, that will. Lead to more sales, you would know, okay, well what is the magazine?

Um, what's their distribution, what is the average profile of the person reading this magazine? What is the average person who's watching this TV and the program? So you have, you know, even billboards, uh, you, you're driving by and, okay, what type of people, how many people will drive by this freeway? So you have some general metrics, but we have.

Um, in some ways I think grown addicted to the statistics and those have their place, we need to know that the ROI is there. But unfortunately, when it comes to earned media, I. You're gonna have to trust the process. And I'll say this one last thing on that is that it is more for the long, uh, the, the long road.

If you're trying to get sales right now and you have to have sales right now, I. That's more advertising, that's more click on this. But if you, I want to be a brand that lasts, that's more of the investment in, in pr. It's fascinating.

[00:18:27] Zack Katz: Hear you talk about pr, uh, because in my head PR is press releases another pr mm-Hmm.

Uh. You, you submit a press release, you, you blanket email a bunch of journalists maybe targeting with a, like a, with a paragraph saying why it matters for post status or WP Tavern. Sure. And then you get ignored because it gets in their email inbox. Uh, you know, hearing you talk about it, it sounds a lot like marketing and branding and advertise like it does is, is.

Is PR just dead? Like, uh, the old image of, of PR that I have in my head is that,

[00:19:01] Adam Weeks: is that gone, Sarah? It, it is. Um, it is being wrapped up into marketing. I don't think you can say we have a, a marketing strategy separate from a PR strategy. It is, I, how I would start to think about it more is the earned versus the paid.

When you are creating, and it's that give versus the take I am giving of my expertise. So for instance, right now for my company's serious influence, which is pr, I am doing PR because I'm not, I'm not, I. Paying to be on here. I'm not being paid. Um, but I am giving of my expertise, I'm sharing of my experience, and I don't expect to get sales right away from this or measure the, the statistics, but my investment in my time is that I.

You have an audience that is, that is looking for the kind of content that you bring. I'm gonna hopefully share some insights I have that will be beneficial to them and they'll be interested in it. And with that, uh, will be a form of, of earned media.

[00:20:13] Katie Keith: Maybe a key difference is the purpose of the public relations activities, because another word for public relations is probably relationship management for your brand.

Mm-Hmm. And so I suppose it's not like even directly trying to sell your products or even. Half indirectly, it's more about the wider long-term perception of your brand in the wider community, which hopefully includes some of your target audience. So maybe a good starting point would be to try and audit somehow the existing perception of your brand in order to think in what way do I need to improve on this.

Do you have any advice about that?

[00:20:54] Adam Weeks: Well, I, I think it's one is asking, you know, just, just being clear and asking that perception. Um, I. A lot of times it's helpful to have someone who is not in your ecosystem, your community, who's gonna be a, a third party that can be objective. 'cause again, as I mentioned before, it's difficult to remember what it's like to not know something.

And you're in your business. And of course everyone knows me. I was talking to someone who says, yeah, I've done. He works in WordPress doing security, and he's done a ton of word camps. He's spoken, he is been on all his podcasts and Oh yeah, everybody knows me. And I was like, well, yeah, but it's been a while since you've, you've done that and your sales have slowed down.

And so that comes to this top of mind. Are you top of mind? And here's something to to think about is that when you are talking about yourself and advertising, what's the likelihood that the person who is hearing your message needs the thing that you are selling at that moment? It's very low. It's very low that I happen to need this thing and this person happened to hop on the podcast or or whatnot.

So the goal is to remain top of mind. So even if, oh yeah, we did that stuff in the past, I. You have to keep doing it. You have to constantly be like, oh, I, I did that podcast two years ago. I was already on like, it's time to be on again. It's time to show up again to be constantly a part of that conversation because if you don't, you won't be top of mind.

'cause I guarantee you there will be a time when someone needs the thing you're selling. Are you going to be remembered at that very moment and then they'll go to your website and buy the thing. So

[00:22:53] Zack Katz: you talked about, uh, word camps and events and stuff. I was wondering if you could, uh, do you have any stories that you could share about, uh, your personal experiences with public relations and Word Camp

[00:23:04] Adam Weeks: events?

Absolutely. So there's, there's a few difference, uh, parts about events. And the one thing I want to, and, and Katie, I've heard you talk about this, is you're trying to determine the, the ROI of a of a word camp. I think you have to be clear as to why you're going, and that is something that I don't always see companies do.

Why are you going to this word? Camps aren't really a sales. Type of conference, right? You're, you're unlikely to do a lot of sales at a, a Word camp again, for some of the reasons of is the person at the event, at the time they wanna buy the thing. Like, probably not usually when you wanna buy something is because you have a problem in that moment and I need to solve this thing.

So you're, you're unlikely to make a lot of sales at that, at a Word camp or a cloud fest or, or things like that. Those are for building relationships. Business is done primarily through relationship building. Creating partnerships, and that's where I've seen the mistakes happen is that people will go to a Word camp, they'll have their booth and they'll put a bunch of advertising out there and they'll be disappointed that suddenly that didn't translate to a bunch of sales, and that was a waste of our time.

I would argue that being top of mind at those events. Yep. Get your logo out. Sponsor the event. Oh, we love word camps. Being associated with that emotional feeling of your company helps to put these events on. That's good. That's long term. That's brand building. What I would like to see people do more of is plan the before, the during, and the after of the event that I want to talk to these people.

And, you know, set that up before, Hey, I hear you're gonna, are you gonna be a word camp? Da da da. That'd be great. While we're there, would you mind if we grab half an hour? I'd love to just see what you're working on. Let's grab a cup of coffee that time. Then, when you're there, uh, being present, being authentic, building the relationships, having fun with people.

People like to do business with their friends and have fun. Enjoy that time. And then also. As equally, if not more important afterwards, follow up, make sure that you took the, the relationships you built and, and take that to the next phase. So that's a thing that I see that I, in my experience, people have kind of missed at a, an event, is that they, they advertise, but they don't build relationships.

[00:26:02] Zack Katz: How do you, uh, you talk about being authentic and having fun and getting to know people and interacting like a human. Uh, I find it really hard to do when I have an ulterior motive, which is I want to nurture and develop a relationship with this journalist so that when, uh, I share something with them, they, they promote it on the website, or I want this person to be a business partner with me and I, I want, and so now I'm going to get to know them.

How do you recommend public relations? How do you, how do you recommend getting to know somebody in an authentic way at an event, uh, that doesn't feel, uh, like you're, you don't, you don't want people to feel used. So how do you, how do you draw that? How, how do you navigate

[00:26:44] Adam Weeks: that path? That, that's a great question.

I, I think 'cause in, in a way is most, every interaction we have with a, with a human, um. There is a self-interest. I'm looking for a friend. I'm, I'm interested in dating this person. You know, like we kind of always want maybe something from it and they want something from, so it's not disingenuous to go to an event looking for partners.

If you are looking for a win-win, I just want you to buy something that you don't need. No, don't do that. I have a solution for people and I'm looking for people who are looking for that solution, like I'm trying to find them and maybe I might be a solution to someone else. Maybe there's something here that if I partnered with it would help my business.

It goes back to my conversation with my daughter. The other night on our date night with Viv Knight, talking about the give and the take of the conversation, give of yourself, ask, give, ask. It goes back and forth. And that authentic no one. If you have a business, nobody is under the, um, miss, like the, you're here just to become my friend.

And that's all. Like, no, we're, we're here because we wanna grow our business. We wanna learn, we're looking for partners. And I think that's the authentic part that, that you can be, be helpful, be curious. Yeah.

[00:28:23] Katie Keith: And while we're on the, um, word camp side of things, um, we've got an interesting comment from our co-host Amber, uh, last year at Word Camp US, we allowed people to schedule 15 mini 15 minutes accessibility audits with us, and it was really helpful for having more meaningful interactions with people.

So they were sponsoring and they helped spread the word beforehand by allowing people to schedule these in, which was really good.

[00:28:49] Adam Weeks: Yeah, it's absolutely fantastic and it's, and it's authentic because, you know, Amber truly wants to help people have better websites that are going to be accessible to everyone.

And, and that is something she's passionate about. It's a problem she wants to solve. And I, I love that about what she did at WordCamp us. And I, I saw her doing that and for her. Obviously it'd be great to turn that into a sale, but if at the end of the day she helps someone make a better website, that also feels good too.

That's also great. We love helping people and if it turns into a sale even better. But, uh, you know, being curious, being willing to help and being authentic is really important, especially at these in-person events. So,

[00:29:42] Zack Katz: Katie, I'd love to hear some of your experiences with pr.

[00:29:47] Katie Keith: Yeah. So, um, a few years ago when I, I started working with ellipsis, the, um, WordPress marketing firm, and they were thinking about how to raise our profile more widely, and one of their recommendations was to get out there and get on lots of high profile industry.

Uh, publications, websites, blogs, places, et cetera. So I work with them to kind of identify lots of places, uh, to be featured on. Um, so that was generally, um, interviews and telling my story to get people to know me and my brand and the company. So examples were things like, uh, WP Tavern and Indie Hackers, that kind of thing.

So. Part of it was like about running a company and part of it was WordPress and it was an interesting exercise because for each one you need to think about what is their audience and what does that audience want. You can't just send the same outline for an article to each one. So the trick is to and to look up the.

Content they've previously published from other people like yourself, and think about how you can add to that. So you want something a bit unique that's within the same kind of pattern as what they usually publish. So we, um, did some work together to. Come up with those and got featured on lots of places, which was interesting.

And while I have no way of knowing what sales that generated, some of it definitely did bring other business opportunities, like partnerships with other companies and, um, even friendships within the industry and things when they saw what I was doing and reached out to me. And, uh, things developed from there.

And that's all from what? Basically public relations, getting my story out there and um, making it available so people know who I am. Um, there's other sorts of things as well that help to raise your profile. Like, for example, with the ESH conference late last year. We managed to get ourselves nominated for this, some of the Sesi awards, and we actually won two awards, which was amazing.

So things like that can be really good for public relations as well, because it's all about that company reputation and credibility and so on. So that was really nice and a different kind of PR, I suppose, to what we've done before. And then there's all things like, um, sharing what you do with the community.

It might be on post status, it might be on Twitter or something like that. Um, I believe lots of people are on LinkedIn having all these conversations and sharing and, um, as you were saying, Adam, people start to recognize you and you are giving and receiving because you share, and that you also get actionable advice and things from the people that you're communicating with.

So, uh, all of that contributes to that wider profile, but one concern I always have is are the people that I am sharing with and raising my profile with my target audience. Hmm. And, um, within the industry, maybe other product company owners particularly are not our target audience. So does that undermine the benefits of these PR activities?

[00:33:05] Adam Weeks: Uh, that's a really good question and I, I go back to kinda know thyself, know your brand, know what you're selling and who is the ideal customer. And you may think, yeah, they're not at Word Camp. They didn't show that's not who's there very much. Or maybe they are, but. Your business doesn't only need direct sales.

There's also the value of partnerships with, maybe there's a hosting company who is at this event, and if they start seeing your brand as more valuable, you become more valuable to them. And that's something that I would say maybe people don't always see is that, uh, yes, that person is the, and they're, and they're not here, so we're not gonna be there.

Yeah, maybe think about it, but um, maybe there's another product or maybe there's different people that can be helpful to your business.

[00:34:02] Katie Keith: Yeah, that's definitely something I've experienced. So, for example, I've only been on Twitter for a year and a bit. Um, that's all quite new to me. Um, but when I needed to, uh, we are selling seven of our plugins at the moment so that we can focus on our remaining ones.

And all I did was tweak saying anyone got any advice on how to go about selling some plugins? And suddenly everybody was inquiring about acquiring them. And I've even had firm offers just through that. And that is because I had raised that profile on the Twitter platform and got people to know me. So when I did need something business wise from them, these are not my target customers necessarily to buy the products individually.

Maybe they, you know, will be a future acquirer, either for perks or the whole company. And there's lots of other examples like that of where you can benefit directly from those relationships.

[00:34:59] Adam Weeks: Exactly. And it could also be a fertile hiring ground. Maybe you're looking to grow and. If I am a valuable potential employee, I only wanna work for rockstar companies that are doing great work.

If I've never heard of you, you're not showing up at the places I care about. I may not want to to work at your company, but Oh, you are on these podcasts. You were a speaker at Word Camp like. Oh man, I wanna work for Katie. Keith 'cause she is an incredible and da da da. Like that's, um, I think exactly what you said.

You've elevated your brand and so there are more things that are important to your business than only sales. And how do you,

[00:35:47] Zack Katz: uh. How, how do you distinguish between promoting your personal brand and your product and your, your company brand? Because let's say Katie does sell barn two eventually, or I do, or any, but any of us does serious influence, uh, how do we say serious influence isn't just Adam, it's also, it's standalone.

[00:36:07] Katie Keith: That is a worry. Yeah.

[00:36:10] Adam Weeks: There is a very small likelihood that you'll retire from the company you currently work at or own. It's possible, but most people are jumping around to different jobs, different places, balancing the you. So I would say put your. Personal brand first be for a couple of reasons. One is because that's you.

Uh, you'll, you'll never, you'll never be another you and that will stay with you. Your personal, the, the company's brand may come and go, but people like to do business with people that they know, like, and trust, right? And so I would say that Barn two plugins benefits incredibly well from. Katie, the investment that you've put in growing your personal brand.

Uh, Michelle Fette and I are working on creating a class on personal branding specifically for WordPress. And this is gonna be a topic that we're gonna be discussing. It'll be a course that'll come out in in a few months, but it's gonna talk about that ex exact thing. How do you build your personal brand and.

I would encourage employers to know how to think about it. Oh no, they're just talking about themselves. Like we need them to talk about the brand. Like, yeah, you can do both. Um, but do it in a way that elevates both the personal brand and the company.

[00:37:46] Katie Keith: I. Yeah, I have discussed this with ellipsis who do our marketing strategy and, and yeah, they felt that there isn't a conflict, there is a level where that can be a conflict.

Mm-Hmm. And we had Yost on the show, I think last April or something, and that was really interesting because we were talking about how he was the brand, wasn't he? And yet he has moved on and it's a thriving company, uh, without him now. But he was telling us about how he actually had to do a project to Deify Yost Mm-Hmm.

And, um, allow himself to be separated from the brand. So I'd say that's quite an extreme example, which might cause a problem for a future acquisition, but for most of us, it just shows that the company's in good hands, which would reassure, uh, people. In the future,

[00:38:35] Adam Weeks: right? When your, your name is the company name, it definitely adds a, a level of wait, what if I want to sell this one day?

And yeah. I often see Yost having to like, and I'm no longer you, like he has to give that caveat. Um, but uh, yeah, an extreme example. Good, good point though.

[00:38:53] Zack Katz: Yeah. For any product owners out there who haven't yet named their company or their product, uh, do not name it. Your name is my, my advice. Um, you know, there's also at the level of, uh, newsletters Gravity Kit, we send out newsletters and we send them out as me, Zack at Gravity Kit.

And I feel like I'm trying to develop a personal relationship with our customers in a way that they feel good when I talk to them because they know me from the videos and or, and on my social medias and all that. But I, I do have the worry every time we send out a newsletter that says Zack with Gravity Kit, like if, if I ever were to sell what?

Happens next. Uh, and will customers feel a sense of loss? And I guess that's a good thing. Um, if, if they, uh, for my personal brand, but it's, it is, I feel a de I, I I want to. Take care of our customers and not have any emotional loss, uh, on their side. If, if anything were to ever change,

[00:39:56] Katie Keith: well think about Pippin and the loss that people felt Yeah.

When he moved on from, um, Sandhills.

[00:40:03] Adam Weeks: And if people ever be glad that it happened, not Yeah. Right. Be glad that it happened. Not sad that it's over. Um, one thing I'll, I'll say on that is, um, it is not enough to merely be good and exist. You need to have news out, you need to have things that are happening.

And so that is the, that is one of those things where a company. If they experience the loss of you, they now have a, a thing that they have to deal with. And we can all deal with that in good and bad ways. And ideally, whatever company you leave, they will deal with that in a positive way and hopefully an opportunity.

That whoever comes in to replace you, like they're gonna be excited about that person. 'cause we want these, these companies that we have helped to build, we've helped to grow. We want them to do well after we're gone if we're authentic, that would be a good thing to, to believe. And so, yeah, I, I wouldn't worry too much about that, but be cognizant of your personal brand versus the company brand and how you can elevate them both at the same time.

I.

[00:41:22] Zack Katz: So, uh, now is the part of the show when we talk about the best advice for new product owners, just, uh, what's, what are we gonna leave new product owners with? Uh, and Adam, I'd love to hear your

[00:41:34] Adam Weeks: best advice. Best advice, uh, make good choices, uh, is my advice to everyone. Just, you know, be, be intentional, but here's what it really comes down to is when it comes to pr, marketing, branding, know thyself.

That's why I. Every book you've read has talked about core values and all of that, because it's important. You have to know yourself, be consistent with who you are. Don't try to be something that you're not being that authentic show up. So that means that try to be able, come on. Podcasts, be a part of the conversation happening in social media and Slack different places, events, uh, just real quick, um, go to Word Camps, go to meetups.

Those are really important. One question I, I have is I, Jonathan Wool just convinced me that I need to go to Cloud Fest, cloud Fest. Is doing a WordPress day. And the interesting thing about Cloud Fest is that it is more of a business centric conference. It's happening in Germany in March. Uh, he just got me this great PO Roma code.

If anybody wants to know more about Cloud Fest, let me know. Um, I went to Cloud Fest US and it was a really great event that was in Austin last summer, but this one is going to be at Europa Park in Germany in March. And again. Relationship building. So that's gonna be my big advice is be where the people are.

Go to those events. It's so expensive traveling. I don't want to get out. That's important. You may not see immediate sales from these type of activities. Good things happen in the margin. So when you have margin time, money, and energy, you can invest in long-term investments in your company. So yeah, real quick, know thyself.

Show up, be present in the conversations, and then I would encourage you to go to these in-person events. They make a big difference. And then how you think about those events is also kind of that really that bonus is don't just go plan your event well so that you get the most out of it.

[00:44:00] Zack Katz: Yeah. And mine is, uh.

I related to Adam, you were talking about your date night with your daughter and, and telling her how to, uh, give and take in a conversation. I recently picked up, uh, how to Win Friends and Influence People. Mm. A book by Dale Carnegie and yes, it, I, you know, I've heard this over and over again, that it's a really helpful book.

I, I read it. It's the, it was revised in the eighties and it's, it reads more modern than. It was written in 1936 and it reads more modern than that now. It's a much better book than I thought, and it's really a great book for developing relationships and learning in practical matters, breaking down step by step, what that means to listen and to respond and to be friendly, and to be professional, and to be polite and to it tells you what to do.

So if you have a question as to, well, what does it mean to network and to build relationships with people over time? And to follow up with them and to thank them. What does that mean? Well, you could pick up the, the book How to Win Friends and Influence People. Uh, and I think it's a great, great start for that.

[00:45:02] Adam Weeks: Absolutely. Great book. Yeah. No, that it's business is done with re in relationships, friendships, and I, I can't stress that enough. Is that authentic? So. Um, that you're not always just trying to take from people that you want to be willing to give and keep that in balance because that is a relationship that is a friendship.

If it's not, it's transactional and will not last long and is not very valuable.

[00:45:33] Zack Katz: And, uh, you know, sometimes it can feel inauthentic to. Give. If you only want something mm-hmm. But if you do it, it will feel more natural. Like, I'm not a generous person. I just give all the time to charities just because, uh, I know I should be.

Well then in fact, you are a generous person. Like by doing the act, you become it. So, uh, so practice. Yeah. And, uh, it'll

[00:45:58] Adam Weeks: happen. No. Check in on people. Ask them how they're doing. Uh, you know, for instance, I was talking to someone and they, you know, they're, um, it was a potential, you know, sale type situation and he's like, oh, I'm gonna be out, uh, my daughter's getting married.

That's good to know, but I truly care. Like, oh wow, congratulations. Your daughter's getting married. Like, that's a big deal. I care about you as a person. It's. Useful to know from the, the sales perspective, but be genuine care about the people you're doing business with and if they're sick, how, oh, are you feeling better?

But be genuine. Like, but I don't feel like nothing. Sometimes it's kind of the how do you, how do you get to be happy? Well start smiling and you'll feel happier. It's, the activity helps.

[00:46:49] Zack Katz: And putting each, if you're at a Word camp, uh, and you hear something like, my daughter's getting married in June, put it in your calendar to follow up with them.

Calendars are your friend. When you're trying to get better at following up, put it in the calendar. Otherwise you'll never remember it.

[00:47:07] Adam Weeks: I live and die by that thing. Katie, what's, if it's not my calendar, it doesn't exist.

[00:47:10] Zack Katz: Exactly. Yeah. Katie, what, what's your best

[00:47:12] Katie Keith: advice? Um, my best advice is to, um, find out how your brand is seen from the outside.

Don't just make assumptions. Um, ask around and try and get that information. Google yourself. See how much you come up and use that as a basis for an action plan as to what kind of public relations changes and work you might need to do. Uh, so I think that's a good starting point.

[00:47:39] Adam Weeks: Well,

[00:47:39] Zack Katz: uh, that's a wrap for this week, Adam.

Thank you so much for joining us. Uh, where can people find you

[00:47:45] Adam Weeks: online? Uh, well, you can find me at, uh, sirus influence.com. You can find me in post at Slack. Uh, I'm on the Twitter X and also LinkedIn. And then I'd love to see you in person. If you're coming to one of these events, I'm definitely gonna be at, at Cloud Fest.

Uh, please come find me there. I'm gonna be at WordCamp Europe. I can't do both Cloud Fest and WordCamp Asia, but that would be amazing 'cause they're kind of similar times. Uh, WordCamp US. Come to those events. Uh, and I'd love to, to see you in person or here online.

[00:48:19] Zack Katz: So next week my co-host Amber Heinz and I are going to discuss how to scale your WordPress product business with special guest Thomas, uh, Fanin, uh, partner manager at ot.

So tune in next week.

[00:48:32] Katie Keith: Yeah. And special thanks to post status for being our green room. If you are enjoying these shows, do us a favor and hit like, subscribe, share it with your friends, reference it in your newsletters, and most of all, we hope to see you next week. Bye.