The Retention Gap: What WordPress Products Are Missing

[00:00:00] Katie Keith: It's into getting new customers. Then half of them vanish each year and you start the whole process again. So why do so many WordPress product businesses pour everything into acquisition and almost nothing into the thing that actually compounds over time, which is keeping the customers that you've already won?

[00:00:24] Matt Cromwell: This is WP Product Talk, the place where every week we bring you insights on product marketing, business management and growth, customer experience, product development, and more. It's your go-to podcast for WordPress product owners by WordPress product owners. And now, enjoy the show

[00:00:51] Katie Keith: Hi, I'm Katie Keith

[00:00:53] Matt Cromwell: And I'm Matt Cromwell from Roots and Fruit.

[00:00:56] Katie Keith: Now, before we get started, if you benefit from WP Product Talk, then we'd love your support. The easiest way is to hit subscribe right now wherever you're watching this. It only takes a second, and it makes a really big difference to us.

[00:01:10] Thanks so much.

[00:01:12] Matt Cromwell: I mean, and if you're watching, of course you benefit. They benefit all the time. Um, and huge thanks to Freemius for being our exclusive growth partner. Uh, we've been growing this channel all along the way, uh, with a lot of help from Freemius. Uh, part of what Freemius has helped fund is actually support to, uh, Jacqueline Meredith, who runs a great podcasting, um, uh, support, uh, operation, um, called Offstage Operations.

[00:01:41] Uh, you should look her up if you run a podcast in any way. Uh, but thanks to Freemius, uh, they help software makers grow, monetize, and succeed. Freemius is a merchant of record platform. Uh, they handle everything around selling software like your checkout and payments and subscriptions, licensing and updates, and global tax compliance, so you can focus on building your amazing products instead

[00:02:06] Katie Keith: Yeah, absolutely.

[00:02:07] So let's get into the topic of customer retention, and for that we've invited Gina Di- Jind- uh, Gindorf to the show. I should have asked her how to pronounce that. Sorry. No worries. Welcome, Gina.

[00:02:20] Gina Gindorf : Hi. Thank you so much- Hi ... to both you and Matt for having me today.

[00:02:24] Matt Cromwell: I- is it Gindorf or Jindorf? This is like a GIF or a GIF.

[00:02:26] Is it a GIF or a GIF? I know. It's a Gin. Gindorf. Right,

[00:02:32] Katie Keith: Gindorf. I apologize.

[00:02:33] Matt Cromwell: No worries. Like, like GIF, okay. Yeah. Does that mean which team you're on? Which team are you on?

[00:02:40] Gina Gindorf : So it's the German side of, uh, the Gin.

[00:02:44] Matt Cromwell: Yeah, exactly.

[00:02:46] Gina Gindorf : So it's Gindorf, yeah.

[00:02:46] Matt Cromwell: Yeah. But are you GIF or GIF? Which one is that?

[00:02:49] Gina Gindorf : Oh.

[00:02:50] Katie Keith: The real question.

[00:02:52] Gina Gindorf : GIF, I think.

[00:02:54] Matt Cromwell: GIF. Same. Same. Oh, GIF.

[00:02:55] Gina Gindorf : Yeah.

[00:02:56] Matt Cromwell: Yeah, yeah.

[00:02:57] Gina Gindorf : Oh, God.

[00:02:58] Matt Cromwell: If you're Gindorf- You're not- ... it feels like you should be GIF, but you know ... be GIF. Yeah.

[00:03:01] Gina Gindorf : Right?

[00:03:01] Matt Cromwell: It's a

[00:03:02] Gina Gindorf : GIF. You're not

[00:03:02] Katie Keith: even consistent with your own name.

[00:03:05] Gina Gindorf : Wow. That's embarrassing way to start.

[00:03:10] Matt Cromwell: Nice. Well- Anyway ... uh, tell, tell the world a little bit about yourself, Gina. Why, why are you here? What do you do? Um, what... Yeah, tell us.

[00:03:18] Gina Gindorf : Cool. So yes, I'm Gina. Well, as I said, half German and half Italian, but have been living in the US for almost 10 years. And my background is generally in marketing and PR, uh, working with e-commerce brands and tech companies.

[00:03:32] And with a very German and entrepreneurial father, I was always interested in the business side and the how-tos, which e- eventually led me to co-founding Loya, which is a loyalty and retention platform that helps e-commerce brands increase, uh, their repeat purchases and their customer lifetime value without having to change much about how they work.

[00:03:54] Matt Cromwell: Nice.

[00:03:56] Katie Keith: Yeah. So let's get into the topic then. Um, with a phrase like customer retention, I think it's usually helpful to define it first to check we're actually all talking about the same thing. So what would you say that you mean by customer retention, Gina?

[00:04:14] Gina Gindorf : Yeah. So it's one of those typical jargon words, right, um, that people feel like they know, but it's really just as simple as getting your customers to come back to you, to your store, and buy again after their first purchase.

[00:04:28] So many brands focus on this word acquisition, which is getting their customers to come for a first time, but it's really that important part of getting them to come back. So-

[00:04:42] Katie Keith: Yeah

[00:04:43] Gina Gindorf : Yeah.

[00:04:44] Katie Keith: And in the, um, context of selling WordPress products, that is often about... Well, it could be a few things, I suppose, couldn't it?

[00:04:52] It could be most commonly about annual renewals, so not having them cancel, so retention becomes keeping people that are on a subscription. But it could also be to use more the angle that you were taking. If you have multiple products, as I do at Barn2, getting them to buy prod- your other products, and cross-selling and all of that.

[00:05:13] But then also, importantly, recovering the people who have canceled their subscription or maybe even let their license expire.

[00:05:22] Gina Gindorf : Yes, exactly. That's so important because, again, the important and where the relationship grows and actually makes a difference is when your customers come back to you, either for a renewal, as you mentioned, or expanding and getting more products from you instead of going to a competitor.

[00:05:40] I mean, nowadays we know that the market is full of competition, and so that retention, getting your customers to come back to you, not through bombarding their emails or just focusing on discounts or free trials, but really to create that relationship, and that's super important for any industry or any market

[00:06:01] Katie Keith: Yeah, absolutely.

[00:06:03] Okay, so let's talk about how to retain customers for our WordPress products. I'd love to know more first about your previous work, and particularly developing the lawyer product and what that has taught you about retaining customers.

[00:06:17] Gina Gindorf : Yes. Okay, happy to. So as I mentioned, I have always worked with, um, mainly e-commerce brands, so more in the sense of like, uh, shopping more than plugins, um, or WordPress products.

[00:06:30] But the... It all relies, uh, it all comes to, back to the same thing. So one of the biggest lessons I've learned is that customers are naturally skeptical. So most people will find reasons to not buy something, and that's why emotions is such an important role when it comes to purchasing decisions, whether it's, I don't know, in the apparel, whether it's a WordPress product, whether it's s- uh, subscribing to a SAS, a- anything.

[00:07:03] So it really is that importance of having that emotion, that connection with the cu- with the customer because for them, they don't know much about you, or even if they do, they have 100 other options. So what I noticed a lot is that brands and companies focus a lot on data and acquisition, but the profit lies in the retention.

[00:07:27] And there's often a disconnect, uh, between acquisition and retention, and focusing mainly on discounts, which hurts brands over time. And so the question really becomes, how do you get that kind of incentive without constantly cutting prices or filling people's inbox? So yeah, that's what I learned.

[00:07:48] Emotion plays a big, big role, and creating that connection with the customer is ultimately the real game changer.

[00:07:56] Matt Cromwell: 100%. That's interesting. I wonder, I wanna hear a little bit about like, uh, what was your main motivation, um, or what was like the pain point that you were facing, uh, that made you say, "I really wanna build this new product called Loya"?

[00:08:13] Like, what, what, what was your context? What, what was going on there?

[00:08:16] Gina Gindorf : Yeah. Okay, that's a good one because, well, since I worked a lot with brands and doing their marketing, uh, and focusing on, like, growth, revenue growth, all that, it obviously was one of those things that I do- dealt with a lot. Like, how do I get more revenue?

[00:08:33] How do I help this brand grow? Obviously, that comes with retention. So the question was always there, and working within that, I saw that there is a gap in the market. So I realized that a lot of brands, most actually, really focus on emailing, discounts, ads, and those are all things, yes, that work to a certain extent.

[00:08:54] Of course, I'm not gonna say they don't.

[00:08:56] Matt Cromwell: Yeah.

[00:08:56] Gina Gindorf : But to a certain extent. You can't send more than as many emails as you can. Like, people are gonna end up s- unsubscribing or blocking you. Um, ads, again, there's an amount that you can do, especially nowadays where everything is ad fake and people are confused with what's real and what's not.

[00:09:16] It's important to have that, like, real connection. And so I was like, "Okay, there has to be a better way to doing this, and something that won't have to change the way people work." And then on the customer side, I realized I love a good loyalty program. I'm a sucker for a deal. And so living in New York, having experienced, like, almost, um, I'm not gonna say every single loyalty program, but a lot of them-

[00:09:42] I really realized that they all kind of suck. Sorry, but-

[00:09:47] Matt Cromwell: No ...

[00:09:47] Gina Gindorf : it, they promise something that they end up not giving you, or you have to buy and come back a lot of times before you actually get a reward. And then most of the times the rewards aren't even what you want. So those two sides really made me realize that there, there is a gap.

[00:10:04] There is something that needs to be changed because everything is expanding, expanding and growing, the way checkout works, the way, like anything technology, but this loyalty concept has stayed in the past. Mm-hmm. So that's how I got to coming, um, to how I actually thought of creating Loya.

[00:10:23] Matt Cromwell: Yeah. That's cool.

[00:10:25] That's really interesting. I mean... Yeah, sorry. Not just me, though. And

[00:10:28] Gina Gindorf : my co-founder, obviously. Yeah,

[00:10:30] Matt Cromwell: of course.

[00:10:30] Katie Keith: Yeah. So what was broken about them specifically, and how do you think that could be better?

[00:10:39] Gina Gindorf : So on the customer side or the u- the store side?

[00:10:45] Katie Keith: Both, really.

[00:10:46] Gina Gindorf : Both. Okay. So for the customer side, again, it's this whole aspect of having to give, to give, to give before you receive.

[00:10:54] And as a customer who has a lot of different options and can go buy anywhere, having to tell yourself, "I have to s- be loyal to a brand that hasn't given me anything to be loyal for, or hasn't even given me a reason as to why I should be loyal to them," it just makes no sense. Like, why give everything before you even receive something?

[00:11:16] So there I thought there was a disconnect, because once that person has already bought from you many times, they're already loyal, and giving them a reward after is n- is not really, like, a way to get more to be loyal, right? Mm-hmm. So there's that disconnect. And then for the For the, um, store side, usually the most typical loyalty programs work with buy 10, get one free.

[00:11:46] So this is a loop of getting the customer to come back 10 times, yes, but then on the... Once they get their reward, that's kind of it. There's no continuation. So there's, like, a disconnect in the sense that you've convinced them to come back to you 10 times. You've given them the reward. What is going to make them start that circle again with you and not someone else?

[00:12:08] Matt Cromwell: Yeah.

[00:12:08] Gina Gindorf : So there's that too, where you have to convince them over and over again to start again with you. So that also just didn't make any sense because if you convince them 10 times, why end the relationship there? Does that make sense?

[00:12:24] Matt Cromwell: Yeah. Interesting. It, it is really interesting. The... Like, one of the things when it comes to customer retention that people talk about all the time is it's way easier to retain a customer than it is to earn a new one.

[00:12:37] Um, and I've found that to be true as well. Um, and what it sounds like you're saying is that because of that reality, it makes sense for the business to spend a little bit more to ma- to retain their customers. Um, uh, kind of like thinking of it even as ad spend. Like, if I'm gonna, I'm gonna give them this much value, um, in whatever they bought, of course, in the first place.

[00:13:02] Like, ideally, the product that they br- bought is giving them enough value by itself, but sometimes they need a little bit of incentives too. That's fine. Um, spend a little bit there. It's probably gonna be way less than your ad spend, and ideally, it increases the total value of that customer or the lifetime value of that customer in the long term.

[00:13:21] Is that the idea?

[00:13:22] Gina Gindorf : Exactly.

[00:13:23] Matt Cromwell: Yeah.

[00:13:23] Gina Gindorf : Exactly right.

[00:13:24] Matt Cromwell: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, we experimented... I, I'll, I'll say I spent a ton of time on retention at GiveWP and also across the several of the Stellar brands as well. Um, is that all right, Katie, if I talk about my experience?

[00:13:38] Katie Keith: Yeah, yeah. Go for yours, yeah.

[00:13:39] Matt Cromwell: Okay. Um- And the thing that we found when it comes to digital products, um, there's, you know, we kinda looked at it a little bit from like a, a, a life cycle marketing perspective more or less.

[00:13:53] Um, there's the pre-sale opportunity, there's the sale, there's the post-sale, and then there's the renewal. Um, and we tried to kind of optimize each of those steps along the way. Now, with WordPress products, most often, not always, but most often they're an annual, um, uh, renewal, which means that you put a ton of time and effort into the pre-sale, sale, and post-sale thing, and then there's 12 months that goes by until the renewal comes.

[00:14:20] A million things can happen to that customer in 12 months. Um, so we even tried to do, um, with our customer success team, we tried to have like a six-month check-in, um, with, with high-value customers in particular, just to say, just to reach out to them, uh, in, in a little bit of an automatic way, um, to, uh, to say, "How are things going?

[00:14:43] Do you need any help?" Because at that stage they could be gone already, and we don't even know. Right. And they might churn. Uh, or if we do a little check-in, we mi- might be nudging them somewhere towards ideally renewing again in the future. Um, but we didn't really talk about it a lot from, um, a loyalty perspective.

[00:15:02] We never considered, uh, any loyalty incentives or things like that. I think the only way that we really tried to provide additional value post-sale, um, was through trying to interact with them as an organization and give them opportunities to be on our YouTube channel or, uh, to promote them through email or through social, um, 'cause we were working with nonprofit organizations.

[00:15:28] Um-

[00:15:29] Gina Gindorf : Mm-hmm.

[00:15:29] Matt Cromwell: And, um, there were actually times when we also did like campaigns to donate to different, uh, customers of ours. Um, and, uh, and that was actually cool as well. But no- nowhere near the scale of doing like an actual loyalty program, so. Mm-hmm. Um, it makes me, makes me think back a little bit and wonder if that would've worked.

[00:15:48] I'm not sure.

[00:15:49] Gina Gindorf : I mean, what you're explaining, from what I've gathered, is really just creating that relationship, which again, there's many ways into getting your customers to return, and the fundamental is that relationship. Like, once you have a relationship with your customer, they are more likely to trust you, and trust is everything when you make a purchase or any decision.

[00:16:10] So that obviously is very important, and there's many ways of doing that. Exactly like you said, the check-in, the opportunity on being on the podcast or the, the videos. So those are different ways. Loyalty is also just another way of, um, but it is less maintenance. So what we like to say is- Having to communicate with the customers, having to get them on videos, all of that is great, but it takes also a lot of time and effort, just like making more ads.

[00:16:40] And yes, there's AI, but to a certain extent you still have a lot to, of work to do to maintain those relationships. So that's where Loyya comes in with this instant loop of really just trying to get the customer, giving them that 5% cashback and creating that relationship without having to manage any more campaigns, without having to send any more emails.

[00:17:03] So it's that low effort relationship, um, to get them to come back.

[00:17:09] Matt Cromwell: Yep. Yeah. Yeah. I really like that. I like encouraging interaction with customers as much as possible for the retention purpose. Um, I always say, like, an empty support inbox is a bad sign, not a good sign, honestly. Um, because I want folks to want to talk to us about- Mm-hmm

[00:17:26] whatever is going on with their, um, with their situation and, and how they're using our plugin in, in any way. Um, so that's, that's a good reminder for sure. I, I will say that, like, what I found to be the most effective when it comes to, to retention overall, um, was, um, doing specific follow-ups about how we can help them.

[00:17:50] Uh, now, of course, we're a WordPress product, um, that, um, was helping, uh, to raise donations. Uh, it was a very high-touch product, um, and, um, and they often have a lot of questions. You know, when it comes to, you know, selling shoes or whatnot, I think that's a little bit different, you know? Um, but, uh, uh, doing a follow-up and saying like, "Hey, do you wanna jump on a quick call and we can look, look at how you are using the product, and h- and we might be able to speak into how you can use it even better."

[00:18:21] This was, you know, a post-sale activity that we did, and I found that overall, whenever folks really reached out, it was often because they were close to churning or asking for a refund, and that that conversation often made the whole difference for them. Um, but, um, but I'll, I'll caveat that a little bit too from like a, a higher business level.

[00:18:43] We didn't really start looking into those types of really human staff-powered activity until we, um, got our pricing good enough. 'Cause there's a lot of WordPress products out there that are like 79 bucks a year. Like, you're not gonna spend your staff's, you know, hours on one customer that paid $79 a year.

[00:19:05] Um, by, by the time we were doing that, we had, um, Gives' average job size was about $240, um, annually. Um, and then their lifetime value often was up over $1,000 'cause we were keeping folks for up to five years sometimes. Um, so when, when the lifetime value is that high, it feels like it can justify that kind of activity.

[00:19:29] So a loyalty program that is a lot more automated- Mm-hmm ... um, doesn't require hardly any, um, time from the staff ideally, um, and, uh, can provide some of those incentives as well. So that, that feels like it could scale for WordPress products better potentially.

[00:19:47] Gina Gindorf : Yeah, especially- Yeah ... sorry.

[00:19:49] Katie Keith: You

[00:19:50] Gina Gindorf : go.

[00:19:50] Katie Keith: Um,

[00:19:50] Gina Gindorf : yes, I was just gonna say exactly, especially for products that there are many of and subscription-based products too, that would help just, again, because as you said, in a year a lot can change, and keeping that relationship and that loyalty program can always help.

[00:20:06] Matt Cromwell: Katie, what's your experience on the, on the retention side?

[00:20:11] Katie Keith: Um, well, first I'm gonna talk about the importance of it, because a lot of WordPress products are seeing a decline in sales at the moment for various reasons. Um, Barn2 are among them, and that makes retention even more important because, like right now, uh, annual renewals are 75% of our revenue.

[00:20:33] Uh, it used to be 66, but because of the drop it's now 75. So that, I think that underlines how much this stuff matters. I should probably have led with that, shouldn't I? Mm-hmm. But anyway, um, so yeah, we do, I'm sure not enough, but we do a lot to retain the customer. I think email flows are important because they remind the customer of your product.

[00:20:55] And what we do is we have really long, um, sequences that literally last years. The, the frequency decreases, but overall it might last three years. And a lo- after the initial onboarding emails, they're things like, "Did you know about this feature that not many people use? If, is your content starting to get a bit cluttered over time?

[00:21:16] Maybe it's time to tidy it up." We think about it per product, so we send loads of emails to help them get that ongoing value because part of the whole philosophy of having a moat around your product is that they continue using it and noticing the value from it over time, which with a WordPress plugin is often easy for people to forget.

[00:21:37] Uh, we don't have a loyalty program, but we do have a thing I recently set up where we give a 40% discount if you buy more than one product, so that that's kind of loyalty in that sense. And we can email existing customers and say, "40% off any other, uh, plugin." That works for us 'cause we've got 19 plugins.

[00:21:58] Obviously, that wouldn't work so well if you only have the one. And, um, one thing we do that's a bit similar to what Matt was talking about is, um, that before the renewal we will, maybe three weeks before renewal, we'll email offering a free, what we call a free health check. So we'll basically say, "Reply to the email with a link to how you're using the plugin, and we will advise you on any ways you could be using it more effectively."

[00:22:23] And, and not that many people go for it, but it's something that shows we care, hopefully. Yeah. I don't have any numbers on the impact of that, but surely it can't hurt.

[00:22:33] Matt Cromwell: Yeah.

[00:22:33] Katie Keith: Um,

[00:22:34] Matt Cromwell: I would

[00:22:35] Katie Keith: love-

[00:22:35] Matt Cromwell: I would imagine- Sorry? Do you, you get more of those with Document Library Pro, right?

[00:22:39] Katie Keith: I haven't even looked, but- Right

[00:22:41] um, I think the table plugins, 'cause we've got three table plugins, generally would more because, uh, things like, they just, there are different ways to configure it and, for example, like they might not be adding filters above the table- Mm ... which would be useful. So there's often very easy things we can suggest just after having a quick glance at their site because we know all the features Um, I'd like to improve that and even get AI to do it automatically and proactively send them advice and things like that.

[00:23:09] But that's a future project. And a slightly more negative thing that we're just experimenting with, after several people at Checkout Summit told me they do this, is to restrict the settings after expiry, so if they don't renew, they can keep using the plugin, it'll still work on the front end. But people at Checkout Summit kept telling me that they don't allow the customer to make changes in the back end, and I was like, "Ooh, interesting."

[00:23:37] So we're gonna experiment that. We've come up with a design of what would happen to the admin, and it gives them a discount if they renew and so on. So that's kind of not such a nice way of doing it, but, uh, we're experimenting with that. But overall, I would say, yeah, the stickiness of your product is the most important factor.

[00:23:58] It needs to really benefit their website in an ongoing, permanent way, and ideally become a really fundamental part of the success of the website. Then they're not going anywhere.

[00:24:09] Matt Cromwell: Yeah. I have to say, I have heard more and more people talk about that, and I don't know, it feels like I'm, like, dating myself or something, but, like, man, the old school WordPressers are, like, all spinning in their graves thinking about that idea.

[00:24:24] Katie Keith: Yeah, I knew you would like it.

[00:24:25] Matt Cromwell: I know. It's just such a, like, it's open source. Like, now, the, the, the code belongs to the customer once they buy it. And

[00:24:31] Katie Keith: they can strip out the code if they want.

[00:24:33] Matt Cromwell: Like, yeah, if they're smart enough and, and can, and have the tools to do it, they can, they can hack your plugin and get it working again.

[00:24:41] Um, but, but I have to say, I, I, I kind of sympathize, 'cause it really is like you're gonna continue to ship new features, you're gonna continue to provide support, um, uh, but, but you know, they're not gonna renew, so, um-

[00:24:59] Katie Keith: But they won't get new features or support after expiry though, will they?

[00:25:02] Matt Cromwell: Yeah, exactly.

[00:25:03] Yeah.

[00:25:03] Katie Keith: So we- they're not actually draining anything from us as such, to be fair.

[00:25:09] Matt Cromwell: True. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's a tough one. It's interesting, but-

[00:25:15] Katie Keith: Yeah. And we've got a comment as well. Uh, Elliot Sowersby has said, um, this is responding to Matt's comment a minute ago, "Agreed. I think offering great personalized support and building strong relationships is one of the best ways to improve customer retention."

[00:25:32] Yeah. They want to keep buying from you, don't they, if they, they like you as a company.

[00:25:36] Matt Cromwell: Yeah. Gina, do you have, like, some good examples of how, um, loyalty tactics have, uh, really enhanced customer relationships? I'm, I'm... I am really curious about how that works.

[00:25:50] Gina Gindorf : Um, yeah. So loyalty tactics, obviously as we've talked about, um, is this- Speaking to customers, a lot of the times just asking a simple question about if they're happy with the product, if there's anything they would change.

[00:26:06] People like to feel part, feel like they're part of something. Mm. So I've noticed a lot of the times when speaking to, uh, your customers directly and asking them, "Hey, like- You know, if you were part of building this with us, like what would you want changed? What would you not want? What would you want added?

[00:26:23] Like having them part of that experience really does make a difference, and also not only just understanding your brand better, but also connecting better. And once they feel like they're part of something, like, "Oh, I made this better," they'll be like more prone to come, like stick with you. And so that, um, another one that I was about to say and then just forgot, completely forgot of, um, oh, having like kind of exclusive groups made.

[00:26:57] So for instance, uh, one of the brands I was working with, not plug-ins, but still the idea of creating like a subgroup of founding members or first triers or, um, the ones who really are part of a smaller group that get XYZ benefits, and then this like exclusive feature makes them, again, feel more connected to the brand and, um, becomes more like loyal.

[00:27:27] So all of these things help with the loyalty factors and the stickiness. Um, and then in the end of the day, people love discounts or getting more money or anything related to money. Uh, that just is how it is. And so this idea of rewarding customers in that moment of purchase and not after it, so like same moment of purchase, not post-purchase, that has really made a huge difference for loyalty and stickiness, um, from what I've seen in my experience.

[00:28:00] Matt Cromwell: Yeah.

[00:28:02] Gina Gindorf : Mm-hmm.

[00:28:02] Matt Cromwell: I will say the one time that I did a little bit of a campaign with, with like a paid incentive was when we were actually working on getting, um, some G2, uh, reviews on our product. Um, and, um, we actually paid, uh, G2 for one year to have like an official profile and things like that. And then we did a campaign through G2 where they actually give like a $50 Amazon gift card to everyone who came and did like a, a complete review, not just like a simple like, "Great, five stars."

[00:28:39] Like- Mm-hmm ... they didn't give... But on G2 it's really complex and detailed how many, um, how they have to give reviews. Um, and I was actually really surprised that the, um, like I expected a bunch of spam and crap, honestly. Like, I was like, "The people are just in it for the 50 bucks." Um, but the, the reviews that came in through that campaign were actually really excellent.

[00:29:03] Um, I was really surprised. Um, but it was a very, a very targeted, concerted effort. Um, and it was clear that like because we did it through official channels with G2, like G2 does this all the time, and they knew what they were doing Um, it wa- it was definitely worth it, I thought, so.

[00:29:19] Gina Gindorf : Yeah, that's good.

[00:29:20] That's good to see that, again, giving that incentive, not post or not a delayed reward is what I call it, but giving it to them in that moment as soon as you do the review, then people are actually more prone to helping out, so.

[00:29:34] Matt Cromwell: Yeah.

[00:29:34] Gina Gindorf : That's good. I'm glad that worked.

[00:29:36] Matt Cromwell: Yeah.

[00:29:37] Katie Keith: I guess- Yeah. That's interesting. I didn't know that you were allowed or that they would even be involved in incentivizing reviews, 'cause normally that's very much frowned upon.

[00:29:46] Yeah. Um, it fits with something I learned at WordCamp Europe in one of the talks, where they said that one of the biggest sites that affects whether you're going to be cited in AIs is G2. So we're just- we've just done a investigation this week into how that works, 'cause we're not on it at the moment, and we're gonna add at least our top products.

[00:30:07] I also didn't realize G2 is per product, 'cause if you're a multi-plugin company, that matters. We have, uh, Trustpilot, but that's for the company, which isn't that relevant because people find us by the product more than by looking for Barn2, whereas G2 is per product, so that's interesting.

[00:30:26] Matt Cromwell: Yeah. Uh, G2 is really interesting overall, and I...

[00:30:29] They... The only way that you can incentivize is if you do it with them, essentially, and it- it's not cheap, honestly.

[00:30:36] Katie Keith: Yeah, it's several thousand a year. Um- Yes. Yeah ...

[00:30:39] Matt Cromwell: that

[00:30:39] Katie Keith: came up in our report this week.

[00:30:40] Matt Cromwell: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And that one year we did that instead of, like, an equal amount of ad spend, essentially.

[00:30:48] Mm-hmm. Um, so we just considered it basically like an ad campaign. Um, but it was good. I honestly, I like Trustpilot a lot more personally. I just feel like it just, it's a lot more accessible from a, from a customer perspective. Um, they're able to get there more easily and, and the ratings and things like that, and Trustpilot is also very high in, um, in AI and things like that.

[00:31:10] But, but you know, nowadays all of those types of platforms are kind of pay to play. If you're not paying them, then they really kind of demote your page in, in ways that I feel like is not cool. But-

[00:31:25] Gina Gindorf : That's sad reality of today.

[00:31:27] Matt Cromwell: Yeah.

[00:31:28] Gina Gindorf : But you mentioned a great point saying you, the G2 reviews, um, it was kind of like an ad campaign.

[00:31:35] Uh, so that is an interesting way of putting it because again, ads are, everyone knows it's, you're paying for this to be seen. And so I did my whole thesis on, on ads, um, and paid media versus earned media. And nowadays with all this AI and like fake content, it is really important to have that trust. Again, always coming back to the same fundamental of trust.

[00:32:04] And so these reviews, having them instead of like a just proper ad that you see on social media or wherever, um, that feedback is a lot more valuable 'cause it's your real customers talking to you. A lot of the time as an owner of something, you think, "Okay, this is the best way to do it. This is what my customers want," without actually listening to what the customers are saying.

[00:32:29] And having this review factor and getting your customers to talk to you and say, "Look, this is great, but this sucks," um, is a great way to improve your product, again, improve loyalty and stickiness. And so it all plays a part, and sometimes investing into that is a lot more valuable than just putting ads out there and hoping people to click on the CTA.

[00:32:52] Matt Cromwell: Yeah. Yeah. I like it. It's, it's a, it's a different way to think about those kinds of things. And, and the truth is, like, um, like I mentioned before, a lot of WordPress products are a very low, um, cost, uh, in general, so it's hard to justify, um, ad spend or any kind of spend in general to acquire new customers.

[00:33:15] Um, but when you look at, look at it in terms of lifetime value, it gets a little bit easier. Um, even a $79 product, ideally, hopefully you're getting, what is that? $240 out of them lifetime maybe at minimum. Um, and that means if you spent like $50, that's 25%. Um, um, that-- no, that's not right. Yes, roughly. Uh, 10%.

[00:33:44] That's around 10%, um, to, um, to acquire that customer. That's not so bad. That's not so bad. So thinking of it like, um, a loyalty program, if you don't p- if you don't, um, do the ad spend upfront, maybe you spend maybe between 25 and $50 post-sale to hopefully encourage that lifetime value to go up higher. Um, 'cause that's the easiest thing is like if you're-- instead of thinking of it just like, "Oh, I'm getting a $79 sale," what if you're actually helping that person renew for four years or five years instead of just three years?

[00:34:19] Then you're increasing that lifetime value. Um, so yeah.

[00:34:27] Katie Keith: Yeah, one thing I love about certain types of marketing is when it's evergreen, and a review that is published online forever is evergreen, as is a blog post or something like that. Whereas an ad is just you pay once and if some people see it and it disappears. So I think another benefit of putting that ad spend into getting reviews is that it will last- Right

[00:34:52] and it will help you in things like SEO and GEO, as it is these days.

[00:34:58] Matt Cromwell: Potentially. Hopefully.

[00:35:00] Gina Gindorf : Yes, exactly. And as you said, like the customer lifetime value is really where a big role plays in knowing how much you can even invest upfront for acquisition. But that's what we've noticed with a lot because, yes, the big teams, the big winning player, uh, the big players can win, uh, with their huge, um, transactions or their big, large, expensive products.

[00:35:25] But again, with WordPress, with smaller prices or like, uh, cheaper prices, it's hard to, as you said, um, allow for that large investment as an, uh, acquisition spend. But that's exactly what we've noticed a lot, so we mainly focus on the smaller players to help them compete between the big ones, and having that 5% as a loop to get your customers to renew or to come back more often or to spend more, instead of just getting one plugin, maybe get two or three.

[00:36:00] And that is not really like an ad spend where you cross fingers and hope someone will come, but this is really just like an investment and a different way of investment into your own ecosystem.

[00:36:14] Matt Cromwell: Yeah.

[00:36:15] Gina Gindorf : Yeah.

[00:36:15] Matt Cromwell: In the comments here, Elliot commented earlier, and then we asked him, like, how does he, um, build strong relationships with his customers?

[00:36:23] And he replied, he said, "I try to offer personal human support for each customer, learning about their specific needs and actually showing that I care, rather than just providing generic answers." That sounds really good. Uh, and then he also said, "And as you mentioned," uh, I think Katie mentioned this, um, "I also have some email flows to check in and share tips over time, and letting them know I'm available to answer any questions that they have."

[00:36:49] Uh, Elliot actually has, uh, I think two different, um, plugins. One is RelyWP and another one is a coupon, uh, coupons for WooCommerce. So I think he's familiar with, uh, incentives as well. So, uh, thanks for being in the comments today, Elliot.

[00:37:10] Katie Keith: So Gina, I want to pick up on, you used the word emotion several times towards the beginning. You said people buy from emotion. Let's apply that to the WordPress space, 'cause people are typically buying plugins for their business and so on. How do you think emotion would be used in a sort of more of a B2B type transaction like that?

[00:37:33] Gina Gindorf : Ooh, that's a good question. Um, so again, even if it's B2B, at the end of the day, behind the business is a person. So it still matters to, uh, create that emotion and trust factor. So, like, life would be a lot easier if everyone just worked through logic and didn't get affected by emotions or what the brain is saying, and just focused on analytics and data.

[00:37:59] That would be a lot easier, but people do end up making emotions... oh, sorry, decisions based on emotions. So that is also affected in the B2B. Like, people want to justify logically but also want to justify emotionally. If you have a good feeling toward someone and a business, um, creating that B2B relationship will be more helpful, and people will end up actually creating that relationship unla- more than if they didn't get that emotional feeling.

[00:38:32] Does that... I'm trying to make sense of this emotions versus logic, but they're very intertwined, especially in the B2B and even B2C.

[00:38:43] Katie Keith: Yeah, that makes sense. I suppose there's positive and negative emotions that you need to take account of. The positive is w- largely what we've talked about through the support side of things.

[00:38:54] We want them to like our brand and want to keep working with us. But then there's the reducing the negative. Um, I'm sure we've all got experiences of companies that we just decided we hate because of c- often problems with their support, might be problems with the product, and we're like, "I don't wanna give them my money anymore.

[00:39:12] It's worth my time to go elsewhere." And so it's about promoting the positive and reducing the negative to get that loyalty.

[00:39:20] Gina Gindorf : Exactly, and unfortunately, the negative emotions will speak louder than the positive ones.

[00:39:25] Katie Keith: They

[00:39:26] Gina Gindorf : do, yeah. So you have...

[00:39:28] Matt Cromwell: Yeah. I actually just, um, saw today this, uh, this example. I wanna highlight it super quick if I can.

[00:39:36] Let's see if I can get this. There it is. Oh my goodness, so many incentives. Um, let's see. Will it work that way? There we go. Um, like this is a, an AI product I saw recently, and they are providing all kinds of incentives to, to promote their product, and this is like a whole wall of different ways. And the way that they pitch this is like, "Earn money by promoting our product," essentially.

[00:40:03] Um, I've, I, I feel like in some ways, I don't know, it's interesting because inf- we all know that, like, influencer marketing is a thing nowadays, um, and that YouTube is definitely a place to be. But this, I don't know, it feels like they jumped the shark on this or... I don't know, Gina, is this resonate with you at all?

[00:40:23] Or are, are you saying, no, this is all the wrong way to do it?

[00:40:27] Gina Gindorf : So I don't think necessarily wrong. I think, as you said, it's a bit much, so asking people to review or speak about a product that they don't actually know how to use or use at all is, eh, it's not great. Yeah, yeah. For those who end up doing it, even without knowing it, the review is-

[00:40:49] Matt Cromwell: It's like all incentive, but no relationship.

[00:40:51] Gina Gindorf : Exactly. So they'll just do it for the money without actually getting to know what the app or what it does, and that won't be as valuable as a real review with someone, like, "Hey, test it for a week or something, and then we can talk about it." That would be already a little different. But yeah, just straight up only incentives without even trying to understand how the product or the app works can be risky- Yeah

[00:41:16] or just less valuable.

[00:41:18] Matt Cromwell: Yeah. There's a big part of me that, like, wants to experiment with that idea with a, with a WordPress product just to see how it goes, and it could be, like, a lesson in failure. Like, we got all these terrible videos made, and now we have a... Uh, it, it could, it could be harmful to the brand, I feel like.

[00:41:36] I don't know. Katie, you seem like you were kind of grimacing the minute I brought it up.

[00:41:40] Katie Keith: Yeah. Um, I thought it was, like, lots of different incentive, but actually it's just one, get paid to produce a short- Yeah ... and it was just a bit of a cluttered design. Um, the nearest thing I've done to that would be that we used to offer, I think it was money or an Amazon voucher, it was, like, $50, not a lot, for writing an, a blog post or something on their site about our products.

[00:42:04] And I think maybe about two did it ever. Um, it wasn't a big thing, and the sites that did it were very low authority. We're not talking big influencers. Maybe if we'd spent $1,000, like this AI, uh, software you found, uh, then more higher profile people would've done it. But what we got was very low profile people that it didn't really have any value for our business, that they published a blog post about how I created the document library on this website.

[00:42:34] You know, not great content.

[00:42:36] Matt Cromwell: Yeah. Yeah. I, I really like the whole concept of making sure that that relationship is there first, um, and, and then incentivizing on top of that. Um, uh, like I said, if it's all incentive and no relationship, it feels not particularly valuable. Um...

[00:42:57] Gina Gindorf : Exactly. Well said.

[00:43:02] Katie Keith: Yeah. Well, it's generally known if you don't pay for reviews, it's almost impossible to get them except through support.

[00:43:09] Putting review notices all in the admin and emails, all of that doesn't actually get many reviews. The time to get reviews is when you've made somebody happy through support. This ties into the emotional stuff that Gina was talking about, where they're feeling a positive emotion towards a real human at your company, and that's when you get a review.

[00:43:30] And practically every re- re- review we receive at Band 2 mentions the support. Um, and that's largely because they've just received it. That's what made them happy.

[00:43:39] Matt Cromwell: Yeah. Exactly.

[00:43:42] Gina Gindorf : Yeah. That's also, like, with a purchase, um, the time that they're most affected and will make a second purchase is right at that purchase, at that moment of purchase.

[00:43:54] So again, whereas that loyalty factor comes in to incentivize them, that would be different to incentivize them in that moment just before ... just to give them a little push to make the purchase or the subscription or the download or whatever it is, more than just like, "Hey, you don't know anything about us.

[00:44:16] Give us these reviews, and then you get X amount of money." Or, or just randomly, even if they do know you, there hasn't been an interaction and then the asking for something. But in that moment, asking or giving that incentive whilst they're feeling a certain emotion, like right before doing, completing a transaction or something, that is when it's most valuable, and that's when the incentive actually works in a valuable way

[00:44:43] Katie Keith: Yeah, absolutely.

[00:44:45] So yeah, I think that's been really useful. I found it particularly useful thinking through retention through the lens of loyalty programs, because that's not a thing I'd ever thought of in the context of retaining WordPress products, and maybe it should be. Mm-hmm. Or at least we can learn things from that to apply in a way that is relevant to our specific businesses.

[00:45:07] So I think that's been really useful. And we wrap up every show by basically giving each of our best advice on the topic. So if someone stopped you in a corridor at an event and asked you one thing that you would advise them, what would it be? Do you wanna go first, Gina?

[00:45:25] Gina Gindorf : On anything?

[00:45:27] Katie Keith: On anything relating to customer retention.

[00:45:29] What's the m- Yeah ... most important thing people can take away from today?

[00:45:35] Gina Gindorf : Ooh, okay. Um, customer retention. So outside of everything that we've spoken about, getting that trust and making that relationship, um, I would say, so the, so the easiest customer to sell to is obviously one you already have. But building a relationship before a customer has become a customer is a very good way to get them to not only become a customer, but also then stay a customer.

[00:46:09] So like with retention, right? And so my biggest advice would be speak more to your clients. Don't just assume that a plugin or a product is the way it is just because you think it's the best way, but you should really listen to customers. And it sounds basic, but a lot of the times we're so in in our head of, "This is the, the way I want the product to look like.

[00:46:32] This is what people want." And then it's out there, and you're like, "Why is no one downloading this?" Or, "Why is no one subscribing to this?" Well, speaking to customers is probably the most effective and fastest way of growing because you get your answers from the people who will buy.

[00:46:48] Matt Cromwell: 100%. Yeah. My, my advice is very similar.

[00:46:52] I would say, um, I'd recommend, um, that, uh, folks should set up a post-purchase interview process. Um, essentially try to automate it as much as you can to, as, after somebody, uh, purchases, give it, like, seven days or something and, uh, send them an email that says, "Want to talk with our founder? Book your time here."

[00:47:15] And it's, like, a 30-minute slot where the customer gets to just chat with you about what they're doing and why they're doing it. Um, and I think those conversations are what will teach you why people leave you w- and why people stay. Um, and those are the two biggest, uh, ways that you can focus on, um, improving your retention is, uh, knowing why they choose you, knowing why they leave you.

[00:47:41] So that's my best advice.

[00:47:43] Katie Keith: Nice.

[00:47:43] Matt Cromwell: Katie?

[00:47:44] Katie Keith: Um, my best advice would be to think creatively about the different ways in which you can create an ongoing relationship with your customer, which isn't that easy for some WordPress product. That might be ongoing emails. I think it should include thinking about what point you're likely to lose them, which is typically before the annual renewal.

[00:48:07] You need to get them feeling positively about you at that key moment because that's when they might receive your pre-renewal email and cancel. And it's actually really hard to think, "What can I offer them right before the renewal?" Like, we've had conversations about whether to send them a T-shirt or something like that, but we have customers all over the world, and we fit into the category often that Matt was talking about, the low-value customers, that that would not be profitable.

[00:48:34] So that's why we ended up on the health check concept, where we offered to give them advice on getting the most out of the product. So think creatively about the types of products you sell and how, what you can genuinely offer to add them value right before you're likely to otherwise lose them. That's a

[00:48:52] Matt Cromwell: good one.

[00:48:53] I like it.

[00:48:54] Katie Keith: Well- Yeah ... that's a wrap. Gina, thank you so much for joining us. Where can people find you online?

[00:48:59] Gina Gindorf : Yeah. So either on LinkedIn or X

[00:49:05] Matt Cromwell: What, what's your handle on, on X?

[00:49:07] Gina Gindorf : Oh, sorry. It's just Gina Gindorf. Um, I mainly use LinkedIn, so that's probably the best, or just on our Loya website and get in touch there.

[00:49:17] Matt Cromwell: Excellent. And folks, because you're enjoying these shows so much, um, do us a favor, hit the subscribe button on YouTube or follow us on Spotify or on Apple Podcasts. Wherever you find us, we are there. Um, it's easy and free for you, and it helps us out a ton. Special thanks again to Framius.

[00:49:40] Gina Gindorf : Thank

[00:49:40] Katie Keith: you. Yeah.

[00:49:41] And next week we'll be chatting with Alex Standiford from Siren Affiliates about how to position products that solve non-obvious problems. Um, I'm a bit disappointed not to be hosting that show because- Oh ... it's an area of marketing I'd love to know more about. I've always been good at advertising products that people are actively looking for, being there when they're looking.

[00:50:04] But actually, with the whole changes with AI and discoverability and SEO, maybe we need to be looking at how to educate people about products that they don't yet know they want, and to have totally different marketing methods. So should be a good one. Thanks for watching. Bye.

[00:50:21] Matt Cromwell: Bye.

[00:50:23] Katie Keith: Bye.