Social Media Marketing for WordPress Products

[00:00:00] Zack Katz: This is WP Product Talk, the place where every week we interview an experienced WordPress product owner on strategies, tips, experiences, failures, and successes of running successful and thriving WordPress product businesses. I am Zach Katz, founder of Gravity Kit and Trusted Login.

[00:00:38] Katie Keith: And I'm Katie Keith, CEO, and co-founder at Barn2 plugins.

[00:00:44] Zack Katz: And I'm excited because today is topic is social media marketing for WordPress products.

[00:00:50] Katie Keith: And this is a great topic because pretty much everyone uses social media to some extent, and yet loss of WordPress product companies are unsure how to use it to grow their business.

[00:01:01] Zack Katz: Totally. And uh, to talk with us today is our special guest, Karmen Kendrick, and Karmen, welcome to the show.

[00:01:10] Karmen Kendrick: Hi everyone. Uh,

[00:01:13] Zack Katz: please introduce yourself and, uh, tell us what you do.

[00:01:16] Karmen Kendrick: Yes, so again, my name is Karmen Kendrick. I am a product marketing manager at LearnDash. And if you're kind of curious what that title means, pretty much anytime it comes to product releases, new products, I am managing the marketing, um, behind all those things.

[00:01:31] And then also my little side business is, uh, unzipped marketing and it is a book that I'm writing, um, about how to you grow your freelance business. So that's me.

[00:01:42] Katie Keith: Excellent. And so we're doing this live and people can also watch later. So anyone who's watching live, we would encourage to leave a comment or a question whether you are commenting on something we've said, uh, adding your own perspective or asking a question that you'd like one of us to answer.

[00:01:59] So feel free to leave comments and we'd love to answer them live. So, firstly, we always start with the topic. Why is this so important for WordPress product owners? So, Zach, do you wanna go first?

[00:02:14] Zack Katz: Yeah. Uh, social media is crucial. You, you have to know what's going on with social, in social media channels because it'll, it allows you to communicate directly with your customers, your users, your potential customers.

[00:02:28] Uh, you need to know what people are saying. Uh, so that you can communicate with them, uh, and respond directly to their concerns or their questions or identify, uh, what, how they're talking about your product and your brand.

[00:02:44] Katie Keith: Absolutely. Yeah. So, Karmen, why do you think it's such an important

[00:02:48] Karmen Kendrick: topic? Uh, for me.

[00:02:49] So social media is a great way to find out what your customers want and what they're saying about your brand, your competitors. Um, and I say that because what happens is you're trying to find the right marketing message to put out there. And the best way to, uh, mean your marketing to speak to your customers is to use the language that they're already using.

[00:03:07] So when you're on social media, you're seeing how they're talking about your competitors or even talking about your brand, and you can pretty much put that into your messaging when you do do your marketing for your product.

[00:03:18] Katie Keith: That's a really interesting point to think about the competitor side of things as well as what you are doing directly.

[00:03:24] So I think it's a huge topic to talk about because social media could be a big opportunity to spread the word about your WordPress products and build a name for yourself, but it can also be a big time sink and it's difficult to measure the return on investment. So as a community, we need to share our experience of what does and doesn't work for us so that we can all learn from each other.

[00:03:49] Zack Katz: So, uh, let's talk about this. Let's learn from each other, uh, during our story time. Uh, let's share some person experiences with, uh, social media marketing and how it made a difference for you and Karmen. Would you please go first?

[00:04:02] Karmen Kendrick: Yeah, of course. So my, I've always used social media, but not in a, uh, business or like a marketing of product type of way. So my story is kind of funny. Um, I was on Twitter before, but for whatever reason I deleted my account and so I was going to WordCamp Atlanta. I wanna say that was 2018, I believe. And um, I had gone the year before that, but I really didn't feel like I really connected with anybody.

[00:04:26] And so I was advised like, Hey, join Twitter and start meeting people. And so that was like the biggest game changer for me by joining Twitter and having these conversations because I was. See a lot of the people I was speaking to on Twitter before I got to WordCamp, or when I got to WordCamp, and it just made it so much better.

[00:04:42] I feel like I knew people. Um, it was so nice just to, you know, have that connection beforehand so you didn't feel all weird and awkward talk. Like, Hey, so what do you do in WordPress? And it's like, Hey, I, I, I saw you online, we were talking. Um, so from that experience, what I did, 'cause at that point I was freelancing.

[00:04:58] Um, so from that point I just started to share my journey on Twitter. About, you know, how it was like me going from a full-time job into building WordPress websites for people and so many people just latched on to my story. And even fast forward to now, um, when this role became available at LearnDash, um, I actually found this job.

[00:05:19] I'm working at LearnDash through Twitter, so it was really, um, just a great opportunity for me to meet so many people and to share my story and just kind of take it from there. So that's my personal story.

[00:05:30] Zack Katz: Uh, we've kind of focused so far on talking about the product aspect of it, but there's the networking aspect of it too.

[00:05:36] And with Word Camp us coming up, I'd love to hear more about your experiences with, uh, using social media as a networking opportunity.

[00:05:45] Karmen Kendrick: Yeah, definitely. Um, so when it also just tying it back into your product, um, when you go to these word camps, like you can connect with your potential other vendors, other brands, and also your customers that may be showing up to these word camps.

[00:05:58] So getting on Twitter, which is I think is the best platform honestly for like Word camps is like time conversation and getting to know people, um, or even putting it in your, um. You can change your name on Twitter, so like you have your username, but there's also a name. And so a lot of brands, they actually do, uh, go into Word Camp us.

[00:06:17] And so if somebody's searching that term or they see it come up, like, you know, it is, feels comfortable, and you can have that conversation beforehand. So when you get to the actual WordCamp, it just makes it just a, a better experience overall. Overall, excuse me, to talk to people when you're there. So that's a, a really big thing for networking.

[00:06:34] And when you get there in person, like you have that connection and it doesn't feel like, Hey, I'm trying to sell you my WordPress products. Like, hey, we've already connected so.

[00:06:44] Katie Keith: Interesting. So what do you find is the difference between personal versus a brand kind of social media in terms of the pros and cons?

[00:06:53] Do you find one significantly more valuable and does it affect the network and, um, that sort of thing?

[00:07:00] Karmen Kendrick: Yeah, so I definitely feel like people, we trust other people and it's not so much as like, you know, your, we want your brand to have its own social media presence, but it's also important from someone from the brand.

[00:07:10] And Katie, I think you do a great job of that. Like you're very transparent on Twitter about you growing your company, and so people like to connect, like I said before, with other people. So it's like a balancing. It's like you have to balance it because your personal brand, if you are connected to your brand very closely, it has to also reflect.

[00:07:29] So you can't be, you know, saying crazy things on social media, but also, you know, talking about your brand and like how your product is like, you know, it solves so many problems, but you're just a nasty person. Um, otherwise. So it's very delicate on balancing that. But I do think having both is important.

[00:07:47] Zack Katz: Do you recommend having, I, I forget what they call them, but like shadow accounts where you have your actual personal and you have your, your personal brand, personal account? Or do you, do you do that? Do you have a, like a, a separate, hidden, personal?

[00:08:00] Karmen Kendrick: Yeah, so at one point I experimented with it, but I just didn't like it to be honest.

[00:08:05] I just felt like I was, you know, I don't know, like just two-faced in a sense. Um, so I'm just like, you know what? This is who I am choosing to be. I'm gonna choose to be a positive person. I know Twitter has like a variety of topics and so you just have to think about like, Hey, what is my actual goal with this?

[00:08:23] And not let your personal interests get in the way of like what you're trying to do professionally, which in sometimes is more important than just like putting your opinion out there. 'cause everyone's putting their opinion out there.

[00:08:37] Zack Katz: And Kitty, uh, could you share your stories, uh, with social media marketing?

[00:08:42] Katie Keith: Yeah, that follows on quite nicely from Karmen's really. Um, I, um, we always have brand accounts for Bond to mainly Facebook and Twitter, just because it felt like we should actually, we have LinkedIn as well, but I never go in there. Um, but all of them are really, we've never really invested in. We just also post our, uh, blog.

[00:09:04] Our new blog posts, and that's kind of about it. Um, and I've never really seen any value. At one point we hired somebody to try to grow our Twitter following as a, the Barn two brand, and nothing really happened. It, you know, we got a few more followers, but it didn't link to sales or anything measurable.

[00:09:23] So I always felt very skeptical about it and, uh, was never on anything personally from a professional. Stance until just last October. And then, um, there was a few things that came to convince me to join Twitter as an individual within the WordPress community. One of them was going to WordCamp us last year and.

[00:09:45] I think this year will be different, but last year it was mostly bigger brands and companies that have been acquired and as, um, a sort of standalone independent company. It made me feel kind of a bit like determined. I can do it on my own. I don't need all this. I was, I was hanging out with loads of lovely people, but they had all been acquired, um, including people from LearnDash.

[00:10:10] And, um, and it just kind of gave me a bit of a complex, I suppose. So I was thinking, how can I, you know, get bigger in the community without needing that support of having sold my company, which I'm not looking to do at the moment. Uh, and the other thing was then my husband Andy, who's my, um, business partner, as well said, you should be on Twitter.

[00:10:31] Uh, Katie. Um, you are the face of band two, and that's what people do. So I reluctantly joined Twitter last October. I think it was point perfect time to join

[00:10:41] Zack Katz: Twitter. Right? But

[00:10:42] Katie Keith: when you left that I, I see there's no coincidence with you moving to Mastodon at this point, which we should discuss later anyway, um, as the comparative social networks.

[00:10:53] Um, so I joined and it was actually amazing, and I very quickly built a network similar to what Karmen described earlier. All fellow WordPress professionals, people that run similar companies, people who can learn from me, I can learn from them, and I found real value in it. It was a bit like a mastermind group, which I have with Zach and some other people, but kind of on a bigger scale.

[00:11:16] So you don't have such a personal connection with these people, but you have a wider breadth of experience as well. So sometimes there's a value in posting a question there as well as, or instead of within a smaller network of kind of a private network, like a mastermind group. So I've got loads. Of it.

[00:11:36] And when we sponsored WordCamp Europe, people were coming up to me and saying how much they value my Twitter, which I was really surprised about because I came into it with no strategy whatsoever. And just because of those two things I mentioned, um, the um, uh, um, the imposter syndrome from WordCamp Europe, uh, US and my husband telling me to, so that was really amazing.

[00:12:00] And I've also had some direct business benefits from being on Twitter personally. For example, we recently acquired a plugin for the first time called WooCommerce Product Tabs, and the previous owner reached out to me having got to know me, and he contact me directly on Twitter. So if I wasn't on Twitter as an individual professional, that acquisition would probably never have happened.

[00:12:23] And there's been a few things like that. And I look forward to meeting people at WordCamp US next week, who I've started to get to know on Twitter, so it kind of jumpstarts those relationships a bit. So I'm kind of still skeptical about the brand side of things and would like to learn about anybody who's making that work for them.

[00:12:42] But I really do see that as a professional.

[00:12:47] Karmen Kendrick: Yeah, brand is very tough because you also, I think some of the brands that do, um, do the best on social are ones that really participate in pop culture. Uh, but if you can find those references, like we missed the opportunity with Stellar, um, which is like one of the kind of umbrella brands of Learn Dash.

[00:13:06] So I think a couple weeks ago it was like a UFO alien Sightings and Stellar is all about out of this world, um, the stellar verse and I'm like, Hey, this is a perfect opportunity. Um, so for me personally, I think that brands, it's really a struggle unless you can kind of connect with what everyone's already talking about without like not being true to your brand.

[00:13:25] So another example is Barbie was very big. But I wouldn't do anything with learned at Jim Barbie. I mean, I don't know when Barbie's a teacher or something, but sometimes you can't participate in every trend, and that's okay. But I think that's what make a lot of brands really stand out when they have their own personality and when they're participating in a lot of the pop culture events that's going on.

[00:13:45] Zack Katz: And how do you define that line From, uh, participating in, in trends and. And holding back. And, uh, do you have a document? Like how do you define this stuff internally? Uh, to say that would be kind of cringe if we got involved in this? Uh, hashtag, uh, let's, let's hold back from this one. Yeah.

[00:14:06] Karmen Kendrick: Yeah. I think it comes to, uh, just having a document that's like your brand's personality as, it's like it's a person.

[00:14:13] It's almost like a reverse, um. Client persona and it's like a persona on your brand. Like, you know, when you think of your brand, who is it? Like, I can't think of anybody for whatever strange reason, I don't know, like Bob Iger from Disney or something. Um, is your, is your brand like this person? Think of it as a person and then also think about your customer.

[00:14:32] So, uh, LearnDash has a very large, um. I guess outside of the US audience and customer base. And so sometimes you have to think about, okay, this is who we are as a brand, these are our customers, and is that really going to connect if I talk about, for example, Barbie to this customer base? And sometimes it doesn't make sense.

[00:14:51] So I think knowing your brand and really knowing your audience is how you can determine what makes sense for you.

[00:14:57] Zack Katz: And regarding that, does that kind of references something Katie was talking about in terms of where your brand is on social media? Like Katie, you said you weren't on LinkedIn or you were, but you weren't active there.

[00:15:08] Uh, our brand, the Gravity Kit is on, uh, is on X, previously known as Twitter. Uh, even though I'm not personally. Uh, how do you, how do you choose which channels to get involved in, uh, as a product owner?

[00:15:26] Karmen Kendrick: Sorry, was that for me or for Katie? Oh,

[00:15:27] Zack Katz: sorry. Yes, for you, Karmen.

[00:15:29] Karmen Kendrick: Okay, sorry. Uh, so I would say just because you want to have, you want to have your handles taken on all social platforms because you just want, doesn't, you don't want the situation where someone just comes in and try to say, you know, nasty things about your brand just because you don't have a handle.

[00:15:44] So I think it's definitely a great idea to claim your handles, but you don't have to actively participate on each brand. I think that thinking about, again, where your customer's at, where they're talking to you already for Learn Dash, that's Facebook, our Facebook group. Uh, it is amazing. It's like over 25,000 members and it continues to keep growing, and so that's like our main focus.

[00:16:04] We do a little bit on Twitter. We have an Instagram account, but it's not updated that frequently, and it's mainly just about showing up where our customers actually are online.

[00:16:16] Zack Katz: And we have a Facebook group as well. Um, and we had been doing Facebook ads to try to Per Yeah. To, to get people to like our Facebook group who may not have known about it because we may not have communicated it well enough. Uh, and we've been slowly building it and I. I've, I admit that we haven't utilized it very well to communicate, uh, to our, with our customers, to interact with them.

[00:16:40] Um, what advice do you have for product owners, for Facebook groups in particular? Uh, Karmen,

[00:16:47] Karmen Kendrick: well, I know it sounds cliche, but it's really the community and you're looking at it more. Sometimes you will have topics that come up that you may, um, put into place. But it's really the community themselves talking about.

[00:16:59] It just also depends on your product itself, because LearnDash can be used for so many use cases. Our Facebook group is very much thriving with people just asking those different questions like, Hey, I'm a homeschool person. How can I use LearnDash in this instance? And it just also depends on your product itself.

[00:17:16] So sometimes Facebook groups may not be the best. Thing, but it just depends on like how complex your product is. And it seems like the more complex, um, the more that you have people that's asking those types of questions and really keeping that group going.

[00:17:30] Katie Keith: Cool. Let's bring up a comment from Amber now, which directly responds to that.

[00:17:36] Um, oh, sorry. I press the wrong button. There it is. Um, so Amber says we have a Facebook group, but I have a hard time finding time to go in and respond to other people's questions and posts. Do you have any advice about that? Common?

[00:17:50] Karmen Kendrick: Yes. So it's very important to establish that the Facebook group is more peer to peer.

[00:17:56] Kind of support and anything official. Um, if you have a, you know, direct question, it goes through your actual support ticketing system. Um, and sometimes you may have to remind people about that. Um, but it's always like you have to make that clear. Like this is very much peer-to-peer. We're here to help when we can, but if there's something official that you need help with, you should definitely go through our ticketing system.

[00:18:16] So you just have to put that reminder out there constantly to people.

[00:18:20] Katie Keith: I feel you would need a very big user base in order to achieve that peer-to-peer support. Um, maybe Would that be better for bigger companies, do you think?

[00:18:32] Karmen Kendrick: I think so too, but I mean, LearnDash. I mean for the last, I think we acquired in 2021, um, even before like Liquid Web like came on and purchased Learn Dash, it was still pretty much a Thrive and I think it's been around since 2013.

[00:18:47] Um, so it has been around for a while. So we have had time to establish that user base. So in the beginning I do feel like maybe it is a little bit more, you're interacting in there and I've even seen, I wanna say. It may be the events calendar. I can't think of which one of our brands is like that.

[00:19:03] There's actually someone else that kind of has the Facebook group, and it's not actually owned by the brand, but the brand is active inside of the Facebook group itself. So sometimes that can be a thing. Maybe you can link with the WordPress influencer and they actually have the group about your product, um, in there as well.

[00:19:20] So there's a little, a lot of different ways you can do it to encourage community. It doesn't always have to be about your product. I think one of the. Things I like the most. Um, with Facebook, I'll see groups about, um, online course academy, online course builders. And when you have a group like that, it's very, 'cause we're all about online courses, it's very easy to insert yourself, but you don't have to worry about, Hey, are, am I getting enough attraction?

[00:19:43] Because people are talking about so many topics when it comes to online course creation and it's just not just about your product. So you can approach it in a few different ways, even being a small company.

[00:19:53] Zack Katz: Amber has a follow up question or comment rather. It says, we have about a thousand members and there are about 10 people who respond to posts and provide help.

[00:20:02] Um, I assume that's people from inside the community, uh, like inside the group that are not employees, that are 10 active people. Is that true? Uh, Amber. But regardless, uh, what, what, how many active members do you see in your groups? Like, do you, how do you reward these, uh, these star contributors? Uh, is that something you have, uh, set up?

[00:20:29] Karmen Kendrick: Uh, for Amber or for me? Oh,

[00:20:30] Zack Katz: sorry. Yeah. Yeah. For you. Okay.

[00:20:33] Karmen Kendrick: Uh, so the funny thing is I don't really do a lot of moderation myself in our Facebook group. Mm-hmm. Um. And we do have, like Michelle Ette, I'm pretty sure you all familiar with her. Um, I believe she has set up some type of gamification badges, um, in Facebook, which is really important.

[00:20:47] You'll see those little things next to people's name and that makes a big difference. Um, also if you have any type of, like a experts page on your website, that may be a way to reward those people that are very helpful and you maybe wanna screen a little bit more to make sure they really understand how your product works and helping people.

[00:21:04] But that could also be something because you're. You know, so valued in our Facebook group. We're gonna actually put you on our, um, experts page on our website and send clients to you, um, for the product. So that helps them show recognition and, you know, support there.

[00:21:19] Zack Katz: And one thing that I was gonna talk about later, but seems like a good time now, is how, how do you use social media as a product owner to kind of gather this feedback into actionable items for the product team?

[00:21:31] Uh, like either enhancements or bug reports or ticket, like how, how do you ingest all that stuff into your company's processes?

[00:21:43] Karmen Kendrick: Yeah, so it's um, it's definitely work. It's not a manual work that goes into that and I'm probably not as good as it as I probably should be. But if you can commit to maybe twice a month just going to, I like using G two and cap tier as well, even though they're not really social media sites.

[00:21:59] Like I like to go on like competitors. Um. The review sites and see what their, their customers are saying about their products, like what are they upset about? And kind of just putting that all into a spreadsheet. You also wanna have like an official channel to kind of put those things in, but just gathering those things and it's just having it there is also very helpful, um, for you to help, you know, talk to your product teams about, Hey, what should we do next in the product?

[00:22:23] So.

[00:22:24] Zack Katz: Yeah. Uh, in terms of my social media story time, uh, when, when we launched GravityView in 2014, uh, I had built a lot of, um, I had built a list already of email newsletter lists, uh, of beta testers and people who had signed up to be interested in it. I had been promoting it on social media, uh, as, as early as possible with like teaser images and teaser stuff.

[00:22:51] And then when we finally launched, uh. It was a good response, but it also didn't sustain itself. Uh, what I found to happen, uh, what I found really got the word out was when we released a YouTube music video and people found that to be really fun and they were retweeting it and talking about it and commenting on it, saying, you know, best thing ever.

[00:23:13] I released that a week before a conference called PressNomics and it was the buzz, uh, at PressNomics, or at least it was for me. Everybody was talking about how. Uh, much fun they thought it was and how it, you know, told them about the product, let them know it existed, uh, all while making them laugh and sing along.

[00:23:31] So that was my, that was my one, uh, viral moment where I felt like the WordPress community knew what was going on because of social media, because of silly video. Uh, and it certainly helped set the brand tone for, uh, gravity view.

[00:23:47] Katie Keith: You've done more than one music video, haven't you? I seem to remember you got Matt Mullenweg to sing one time.

[00:23:54] Zack Katz: I did, yeah. Matt, Matt contributed during the pandemic, I, uh, saw the, the social media videos that were going around where with people all collaborating on a music video. So, um, I had the person who created the Gravity View Music video, he created a song for, uh. For, for everybody to take part in. And then he edited it together and we all, uh, sang along.

[00:24:17] So, um, I believe that was the WordPress' People song. Um, and it's really nice

[00:24:23] Katie Keith: WordPress Strong or something. WordPress

[00:24:25] Zack Katz: strong. Yes. Yes. Thank you. I, how quickly these three years have gone. So if you go to wp strong.com, let me make sure that link's, no, that doesn't work. Link, uh. WP strong.org. You can see, uh, a lot of people joining in on a collaborative video during the pandemic.

[00:24:45] Katie Keith: And that's interesting because that's not directly for your brand, but it would've helped raise awareness of Gravity Kit as it was then.

[00:24:54] Zack Katz: Yeah, and I, I decided, thank you, in order to make it at a business expense. So I figured it was, it made sense to have a little thing at the end of that said, you know, brought to you by Gravity View.

[00:25:03] Um, I don't think, uh, Matt was thrilled that that existed. He thought it was just some sort of open source project, like, I don't know. It had to be paid for somehow. Sorry, Matt. I didn't apparently brief him on that. Sorry. I

[00:25:18] Katie Keith: didn't know that.

[00:25:20] Zack Katz: So, uh, yeah, Karmen, um, please go ahead. I wanna

[00:25:23] Karmen Kendrick: say, it sounds kinda like a, we are the world type of, uh, project.

[00:25:26] I don't know if you're familiar with Michael Jackson and all the people that contribute to that song. So that's what it made me think of just now. Just a random thought.

[00:25:33] Zack Katz: Yeah. And I, I had originally thought that everybody was gonna be singing in their, in their natural voices. Jonathan Mann in his, uh, in his wisdom auto-tuned people so that it actually matched the, matched the, the melody rather than trying to make it, uh, uh, you know, just our voices.

[00:25:51] So that was probably a wise move.

[00:25:54] Karmen Kendrick: Yes.

[00:25:57] Zack Katz: So now is our section for best advice for product owners, um, regarding social media. So Kitty, uh, can you share your best advice for product owners?

[00:26:08] Katie Keith: Yeah. Uh, I would say to choose a purpose for your social media marketing. Are you targeting potential customers, existing customers, or more generally raising awareness of yourself and your company in the industry.

[00:26:22] And once you've done that, figure out which social networks they hang out on and get active there. Make a habit of posting regularly and allocate at least 10 minutes a day per network to scrolling through your feed and commenting on other people's posts too, because that makes a difference. And I think we should pull out some of that in a minute.

[00:26:42] And once we've done all of our top tips and talk about pros and cons of different networks and things as well.

[00:26:50] Zack Katz: Yeah, I, I agree that we should talk more about that. Um. For, for my tip, uh, my best advice, it's to find out who's in charge of social media. Um, because our support team technically responds to some questions in our Facebook group, but then our, our marketing team responds to people on Twitter.

[00:27:11] Uh, and sometimes things can fall through the cracks. Uh, if we don't keep on top of it. Uh, there there's a Gravity Forms forum, uh, that they run, like running discourse. That's, it gets complicated. So make sure you know who's doing what and, uh, and then customers can learn whether or not they can rely on your response.

[00:27:34] Katie Keith: So, Karmen, what are your, um, top tips and best advice for new product owners on social media?

[00:27:41] Karmen Kendrick: Yeah, so I think I have already kind of, um, alluded to some of these points, but thinking about, thinking about where your potential and even your existing customers are currently, and then also you don't have to be on every platform, just the one that makes sense, but reserve those handles.

[00:27:54] I can't, uh, recommend that enough.

[00:27:58] Zack Katz: And I know that Katie, uh, Katie and I before the call. Uh, Katie gave me a lot of grief about,

[00:28:04] Katie Keith: there's only one sentence.

[00:28:06] Zack Katz: Oh, there, there was so much. There was so much guff that was just embedded in that sentence. Uh, because on a master. So let's

[00:28:13] Katie Keith: make it live to the world.

[00:28:14] Let's

[00:28:14] Zack Katz: make it live. I'm airing my grievances right here, live on the show. Um, I left Twitter. Uh, I am still, I still, uh, just scroll Twitter, but I, I refuse to engage. I, I favorite things, but I'm not gonna add content because of my, I don't know, my, my ethics that aren't actually that strong. You have principles.

[00:28:36] I have principles, darn it. At least until the next time I choose to change my principles. Um, so I'm on Mastodon only and I find that there's a great word community there, but it's not the same as Twitter. And it's certainly not the same as threads and it's not the same as Blue Sky and it's not the same as LinkedIn.

[00:28:52] 'cause who knows what goes on there. Maybe Karmen does. Uh, Karmen, can you help guide us on this? Uh, I know you talked a little bit about finding where your customers are, but can you, can you go into more, uh, the kind of nuances of different networks and what might be there?

[00:29:12] Karmen Kendrick: Yeah. So, um, I think even if like not choosing to actively participate on Twitter, um, or ex, so I feel like you can still maybe put in your bio and maybe even it's a auto responder.

[00:29:24] It's reminding people like, Hey, we're not on here that much, but here's where you can connect with us on other places. So I think that actually works as well. Um, you're not really actively adding anything of benefit, but you're just telling people like, Hey, if you're here, um. You know, just, you know, you can still, you know, talk to me on other platforms and just talk about the brand on other platforms.

[00:29:43] So I think that's what you kind of just have to decide, just checking in every now and then, but you don't have to say like, I'm gonna do a whole strategy on this platform. Um, because I feel like even threads, we were very excited about it. And then I'm just like, I don't hear anything about the threads anymore.

[00:29:59] So, so

[00:30:02] Katie Keith: yeah, that was brief, wasn't it?

[00:30:05] Karmen Kendrick: Very brief.

[00:30:06] Zack Katz: So wait is threads over Carly?

[00:30:09] Karmen Kendrick: I think that people are engaging on it. I think it, it kind of turned into a more niche type of thing. Um, like I have a friend, she's a hairstylist and she said that hairstylists were doing really rare. I mean really well on threads.

[00:30:20] So I think it just depends. It's back to where your audience is.

[00:30:26] Katie Keith: I've noticed that when people apply for marketing jobs with me, they start recommending that we go on all these social networks that we are not. Um, for example, one person was adamant that we should be on Pinterest and that that was like the third biggest search engine in the world or something like that.

[00:30:45] But I've never heard of any WordPress company having success through that. And similarly, others are saying we should be on Instagram. Whereas I can't see any relevance of Instagram because that's like photos, isn't it? I know I'm showing my age here, um, but we don't have photos of our products. Maybe screenshots, but who wants that?

[00:31:05] So what about these other, um, networks? Are there any others you think people can find success with? Karmen?

[00:31:12] Karmen Kendrick: I definitely think you can find success with TikTok and Pinterest, but it's not just a simple thing as just posting. It still has to be a funnel to like get people. 'cause the ultimate goal is we want people to buy our products and find success in them.

[00:31:26] And so it can't just be, oh, we should be there because. Cool. And everybody's already there. Like you can't just do what to fit in the crowd. Like you have to have a strategy because at end of thing, at the end of the day, like, you know, you're paying people to, you know, do this job and they also have to be producing something from it.

[00:31:42] So it would be nice to have a presence and be posting on all these platforms, but you just have to choose one. Do that very well, and then maybe move on to the next platform if you can, or if you want to.

[00:31:54] Zack Katz: And in terms of strategy, how long should people try a network? Like how long should a brand be building and building before realizing that it might not be a good fit for the network?

[00:32:06] Karmen Kendrick: Um, I know it sounds like a long time, but I would at least give it a year. But you have to be very focused on making sure your content connects and that everything you put out there, it has an end goal to it. So I would say at least a year. Um, I started at TikTok for Learn Dash. We have one video up, and so I'm very, I even did the Pinterest thing.

[00:32:25] Let's just like, Hey, we can't, let's just focus on what we're actually good at. Mm-hmm. So

[00:32:30] Zack Katz: I did a Instagram. So we joined, we have a mascot called Floaty. He is an astronaut. He may or may not be human. We don't know. Uh, he joined Instagram and he has posted maybe once or twice, um, but one, we did a paid ad for Instagram where somebody made a cookie that was, uh, a floaty cookie, floaty design cookie.

[00:32:54] And they did like a time-lapse video of them decorating it all. Nice. And it. It got no play. Like nobody, all the cookie community loved it like the p and uh, no, it didn't go beyond the cookie making community. So, uh, in terms of strategic blunders, I would say that was it. Uh, and we have not been back on Instagram, uh, since then, so I don't think we're gonna be, uh, staking a claim there.

[00:33:22] Karmen Kendrick: Yeah, interest. It goes back to that funnel, like, um, I was gonna say, I'm sorry. So when it comes down to, like Instagram for example, or ads, it's like, Hey, what are, where are the people adding their journey? Do they already know about my product? Are they looking for that solution? And then it kind of just goes from there and how that flows.

[00:33:39] So it could work, but you have to be very, very detailed on what you want that to look like.

[00:33:44] Zack Katz: I didn't have a strategy. I just wanted a cookie about our mascot is.

[00:33:54] Katie Keith: Uh, one of my concerns about joining Mastodon is diluting, um, the impact of, say, Twitter, because I don't wanna double the time I spend scrolling through feeds, and I, I've heard that there's a lot of duplication between the two as well. And so it's like, I think if you do one, you have to kind of embrace it as we just touched on, with not being on too many and do it properly so that you can really build a following and.

[00:34:21] Um, make it work. So the more you are on, the less likely that is, particularly as an individual rather than a brand where you might have different marketing colleagues to handle different networks potentially. Right.

[00:34:35] Zack Katz: Herman, are you concerned at all from a brand management standpoint? Uh, associating with.

[00:34:43] You know, X because, is there like a, are you on truth social, for example? Like is there, is there some sort of brand management question as to what networks you join versus what networks you don't join from a, from just an associative standpoint?

[00:35:01] Karmen Kendrick: Yeah, so I'm very much in the mindset of what's best for the business.

[00:35:06] Um, which can be, you can toe the line with that. 'cause some people have used that excuse as to do very unethical, unreasonable things. Um, but it's, to me, it's about what's best for the business. Me personally, I'm getting older, so I don't want to be on every new social app that comes up. But if it makes sense for the brand, and if my customers are saying, you know.

[00:35:27] We don't like what X is doing and we're moving somewhere else, we're going to mastodon. It totally makes sense to establish your presence there because your people have made it known. Um, and so that could be maybe accomplished and maybe even surveys send out to your customers like, Hey, where are you hanging out on online?

[00:35:43] And you can make those decisions, those sound decisions based on actual research you have from your customers. So,

[00:35:50] Zack Katz: and Karmen, uh, one thing I've, I wanted to make sure to get. All your, all your knowledge and insight on, uh, was, uh, using social media for product launches and like what, what are your tips for specifically how to sculpt kind of a product launch campaign?

[00:36:07] I would love to learn more about that.

[00:36:10] Karmen Kendrick: Yeah, so for LearnDash it's more of awareness thing on social media, like, hey, it's out there. But our biggest one is going to be our Facebook group. So anytime we have a product launch, I don't care if we don't touch Twitter, Instagram, we are definitely going to put out an announcement in our Facebook group.

[00:36:26] Um, and that's how we handle it. We like, we don't have to do every single platform. It just makes. Since I keep saying this, like what our audience and what our customers are actually engaging with and what they're gonna see. Because we can put something on Instagram or Twitter and we don't mention it in Facebook group.

[00:36:42] And then someone finds it and screenshots it and like, Hey, why didn't you guys tell us about this? And I'm like, oh my God, we just forgot to do that. So we've learned that the Facebook group is the most important for announcements.

[00:36:54] Zack Katz: And do you do the same for sales? Uh, like how, how do you, how do you approach it?

[00:36:59] Like specific social media sales? Do you do that versus like email newsletters, uh, on the website? How do you do promotions? I.

[00:37:09] Karmen Kendrick: So email is always our biggest driver when it comes to conversions. Social helps. Social is more so to me, social ads and it's, uh, retargeting people that may have gone to the site or something of that nature.

[00:37:21] And so when it comes to ourselves, we're, that's what we're basically doing, where we're doing retargeting on social and not so much as trying to get the word out about it, because at the same time, WordPress products. They can be kind of niche. And so it's not like somebody with LearnDash, they may be looking at a teachable instead of, we don't, we can't compete with a teachable.

[00:37:40] Um, so it's better to try to get the people that are already looking out erection and put more attention on that. Okay.

[00:37:49] Katie Keith: Interesting. And I wonder whether we should widen the net of what we would call a social network, for example, within WordPress. There are other things which are basically equivalent, such as the post status, slack community. In terms of the benefits actually, that is pretty much a social network, isn't it, even though it's a closed one.

[00:38:10] Um, would you say that should be part of the strategy and are there any others like that that I've missed?

[00:38:16] Karmen Kendrick: Yeah, I think when you say that to me, social media just means community and uh, with something like, uh, discord or Slack channel, you kind of have a little bit more ownership on what happens there.

[00:38:26] So it's not even just thinking about, oh, I need to be on these top platforms. I'm focused on building my community. And I think that's the, the best way to look at this.

[00:38:35] Katie Keith: Yeah, true. And, and with each one I find it's more and more time and overhead. Like I don't get much outta the post status one because I haven't made the time to go through all the different, uh, threads on it.

[00:38:48] And sometimes people will comment me on something relevant and I join in, but I find it's more and more. Places to check every day. And there's obviously the official ones. There's WordPress and WooCommerce, and there's absolutely tons of them. So I find that challenging, but I think there's a lot of value in those WordPress ones.

[00:39:07] Karmen Kendrick: Yeah, definitely. Um, I just lost my point that I was gonna say behind that about the community building piece to it, but um, oh, I know what it was. So a lot of things are changing on social media platforms, like I think it's what they're calling, um. Staying on the platform, there's a special name for it, but it's like basically no linking out.

[00:39:27] And for us, like we need the traffic from people linking out, but these platforms, they don't want people to leave. So it's honestly best to try to figure out your best way to build C, like using these social media platforms to get people to your actual own community is what it comes down to, because the rules are always changing and it's also always to their benefit and not ours as product owners.

[00:39:49] Katie Keith: Yeah, I have heard, heard that, that linking out, they don't want even things like, um, apparently it's better to embed a video directly into Facebook or Twitter rather than host it on a YouTube site and then put the link in and things like that because it's all about, um. It's creating that, um, kind of echo chamber where nobody can get out.

[00:40:11] They just want you to stay within there. And yeah.

[00:40:14] Zack Katz: And one of the things that we explored was setting up our own discourse, not discord, uh, but discourse, which is like a forum software. And we chose not to do it because we would have to build that whole network up. Um, there's self-hosted, uh, like buddy boss for example, community platforms that allow you to try to build a community on your own domain.

[00:40:36] That, that you don't have to use Facebook, but it, it seems like you would have, you've been talking Karmen about bringing people, meeting people where they are at the platform that they're currently using, addressing their, their concerns wherever they are, and building a community of your own is a lot more work than, than going to where they exist already.

[00:40:58] Um, have you, what's your opinion on trying to build a network on your own domain that, uh, from like, from scratch.

[00:41:07] Karmen Kendrick: I think it's a two-pronged approach. It's like you still are on the networks that already exist, but you're still finding ways to push them into your own community or wherever that may live on your own domain.

[00:41:17] So I definitely think it's a two part. You're definitely not gonna just build it and have people coming there from day one, but pushing people there. Um. There's a game on my iPad, it's called like township, and it is just like amazing to me all the things in the game that keeps me coming back to, 'cause I've played plenty of games before, but like it just keeps me coming back.

[00:41:35] So like you really have to strategically think about what you're building your own community and like, how do I keep these people coming back? How do I keep them engaged? So.

[00:41:47] Katie Keith: Yeah, like the whole gamification thing and um, yeah, those rewards, it's hard with knowing whether to create your own community or bring people into Facebook or something, because on the one hand, you've gotta build the whole thing and people would have to create accounts on your buddy boss website or whatever.

[00:42:06] But on the other, what about the people that have refused to join Facebook? For example, which seems to me to be declining, fewer and fewer people are on it. So at the moment, I can't think of one universal place where everybody is, where you can guaranteed meet all of your customers.

[00:42:25] Karmen Kendrick: Yeah, I think the only way that's kind of solving that problem is I, I notice a lot of sites are using social, um, sign-ins, so it makes it so much easier versus having to create a new account because a lot of people are using things like Gmail for example.

[00:42:37] Uh, Facebook and Twitter is off often options, but it kind of meets people where they are and they don't have to create a brand new account, and it's something that they're already using to try to get them into your own community. So I definitely recommend using things like that.

[00:42:51] Katie Keith: Yeah, true. I. Right. Well, we've nearly, um, been 45 minutes, which is when we normally end.

[00:42:59] So does anybody have any final points they want to make before we close?

[00:43:06] Karmen Kendrick: Okay. Well I was, I'm sorry. I just wanna say this was a really great conversation. Um, I really enjoyed it, so I just wanna put that out there.

[00:43:14] Katie Keith: Well, thank you so much for being on the show. Yeah, it's been great and I think we've covered a really great breadth of the issues around social media marketing for product owners, which is exactly what we wanted.

[00:43:24] So hopefully that'll be super useful to people. And you've been a brilliant guest. Uh, next week we are not doing an episode because. All four. Uh, actually Matt's off at a wedding and the other three hosts are at WordCamp us. So, um, we're gonna skip a week and then we will be back on the 30th of August with Special Guest Rich Table, uh, product manager at Automatic.

[00:43:50] And we're going to be talking about product user experience. So that's a totally different topic, uh, to this week, and that would be really interesting.

[00:43:58] Zack Katz: And, uh, I, I love that Katie says you've been a brilliant guest that's, uh, British for, you've been an amazing guest, uh, or excellent. Thank you, Karmen. Well, Matt,

[00:44:08] Katie Keith: doesn't, lemme say sounds good.

[00:44:10] Apparently Sounds good. Is negative in America, so

[00:44:14] Zack Katz: I don't know about that. Matt's been in Germany too long.

[00:44:18] Katie Keith: I'm not gushing enough. Yeah,

[00:44:20] Zack Katz: so thank you Karmen. And uh, special thanks to post status as well for being our green room where we coordinate things. Uh, if, if you're enjoying WP Product Talk, uh, please, uh, do us a favor.

[00:44:32] Hit like, hit subscribe, share with your friends, add us your newsletters, or no, add us in. Sign up. Just go, go sign up. Follow us on all the socials, uh, even Mastodon, where Katie is not yet, but she should be because that's where I am. And most of all, uh, we hope to see you next week. Uh, thanks again for Karmen Kendrick from Learn Dash and uh, thanks everybody.

[00:45:01] Hi.