Oops! How to (Accidentally) Become a Plugin Developer

[00:00:00] Ian Misner: Yeah, nobody sits down at age 12 and decides they're going to be a WordPress plugin developer. Almost everyone there in the space, they got here by accident. You built something to fix a problem, you fixed a client's problem, you answered some questions online, but then one day you looked up, you had users, support tickets, a pricing page, and a whole bunch of work to do.

[00:00:21] So today, we're talking about that accident, how it happens, what people get wrong in the early years, and how to do it better. Welcome to WP Product Talk

[00:00:33] Matt Cromwell: This is WP Product Talk, the place where every week we bring you insights, product marketing, business management and growth, customer experience, product development, and more. It's your go-to podcast for WordPress product owners by WordPress product owners. And now, enjoy the show

[00:01:00] Ian Misner: Oh, there we are I don't know how I've done this. Do you wanna fix this? Well, I mean, if you benefit from WP Product Talk, we would love your support. Easiest way to show your support is to hit subscribe right now. It only takes a second, and it makes a big difference, and if there's enough subscribers, I'll figure out how to use this app.

[00:01:23] Matt Cromwell: And huge thanks to Freemius for being our exclusive growth partner. Freemius helps software makers grow and monetize and succeed, even if you're an accidental developer. Uh, Freemius is a merchant of record platform. They handle everything around selling software, your checkout, your payments, your subscriptions, your licensing and updates, and global tax compliance.

[00:01:43] I'll tell you personally, I've been checking out a lot of different platforms that do these kinds of things. Freemius really is the all-in-one in many ways. So, uh, they do this so you can focus on building your amazing products instead.

[00:01:56] Ian Misner: Yeah, awesome. And, uh, d- for today, we've brought on, uh, Jonathan Hall to help us with the topic of becoming a plugin developer by accident.

[00:02:05] Uh, welcome, Jonathan. Would you mind, uh, sharing a bit about yourself?

[00:02:09] Jonathan Hall: Hi, uh, my name is Jonathan. I'm joining you guys from northern British Columbia, Canada. Um, I became one of those accidental WordPress plugin developers about, uh, 11 years ago, and as they say, the rest is history. So, um, currently I work, um, with an amazing team as the CTO of BerryPress, and, and when I'm not, in the rare moments that I'm not at my desk, you know, uh, making magic, chasing bugs, uh, chasing my business partner, who can be very hard to keep up with, um, I'm probably either chasing animals on my family farm or, uh, chasing my four kids on that farm, or, um, chasing somebody, uh, faster than me up a mountain somewhere.

[00:02:45] Matt Cromwell: Nice. And, uh, for those of you who are watching right now on X or on YouTube or on LinkedIn, um, use that comment section. We will highlight your comment on the show and answer it. Um, the really hard questions we'll make Jonathan answer, and the softballs I get to answer, and, um, uh, but participate. This is your show, too.

[00:03:09] Ian Misner: Yeah. Awesome. Yeah, well, uh, Jonathan, if you wanna start out with, uh, the bit of the backstory here is, uh, the, the whole accidental thing. You know, how, how, you know, how do you accidentally get into WordPress plugin development? Mm-hmm.

[00:03:21] Jonathan Hall: Yeah, so basically, um, it wasn't the plan. So I was, uh, about 2014, 2015, I was running a, a very small web agency building websites for clients, including using WooCommerce at times.

[00:03:33] And, um, out of that, one of my clients had a need to do some reporting in WooCommerce to get a, a report basically, um, of all their sales just grouped by product. They just wanted to see which products were doing well, which were, were not doing so well, and what the revenue numbers were at the end of the month.

[00:03:48] And that was, uh, early days for WooCommerce, back at around, I think it was version 2.3. Um, and there wasn't really a good way to do that to, to meet the, the needs of that client at least. And so I, I talked to the client. I was like, "Well, I can see if I can build a plugin to solve that problem, and if I do that, I won't charge you extra, but I will then distribute that plugin, and so other people can benefit from it."

[00:04:10] And so that's, that's what happened. I, um, initially I was going to make it a paid plugin, and I tried submitting it to, uh, one of the marketplaces at the time, but it was rejected. It was just too simple, I think was the, was the answer I got. And so I, it ended up being a free plugin on wordpress.org, and things just grew from there.

[00:04:28] Ian Misner: Yeah, I mean, it's pretty far, you know, running a suite of plugins from just putting something together to drop on .org, you know, one of these days. It's a pretty broad gap between then and, then and now, right? So what, would you mind sharing a little bit more on sort of like the, the, the steps that you took beyond that initial submission?

[00:04:48] Jonathan Hall: Yeah. So it was basically all organic growth from there. It wasn't, I never planned to even run a plugin business. I, I did try that, that first submission to a marketplace, and when that didn't, when that didn't work, then I just was, it was just gonna be something I gave away for free to, um, to the community.

[00:05:03] But, um, as people started using it, there was obviously a real need 'cause user base started growing, and there started to be more and more, uh, feature requests and other things people wanted to do with, um, the plugin in terms of reporting. So, um, uh, uh, I don't remember exactly the timeframe, but I would say about six months after I, I dropped that plugin on .org, I, um, I then launched a WooCommerce store on my agency's website to start selling that plugin, um, and referring people who had more advanced needs there, and that's where I start, that's, that's where I started growing the product is, uh, on the, on the pro side.

[00:05:35] So, um, and from there, just more needs. I actually created a plugin or two that was a fork of that plugin that also did reporting, but did different types of reporting. And, um, and once I, once I started really enjoying working in the space, then I came up with other ideas, other needs I saw, um, and then that just grew the, the catalog.

[00:05:56] Ian Misner: And what kind of timeframe was there between sort of like that initial client, the discovering of that, that need to, you know, getting it up there and starting to offer it up for sale?

[00:06:06] Jonathan Hall: Well, the in- so the initial free plugin was, it was very quick, probably took a few weeks, and then from there I think it was about six months, maybe nine months, um, when the pro version was born, just out of, out of the volume of user needs.

[00:06:21] Ian Misner: Yeah, it's awesome. Um, so, you know, with, with that then, so the, the lesson someone should take away, you know, you get involved, identify the problem, start solving it before you worry about how it's a business, right? Is that something you would do again? Like would you do something differently now versus where...

[00:06:38] W- when you, when did you do that, and would you do it differently now? How long ago are we talking?

[00:06:44] Jonathan Hall: Yeah, so, um, I think that, I mean, we do approach things a little differently now 'cause we are a business. Um, and we do look at the commercial viability of, of a need now. Um, not, not always. We still have some plugins that, you know, they will never be pro.

[00:06:58] They're just very basic utility plugins. Um, but we do, we do look at the viability, and, um, and the, the market and the competitors obviously, 'cause there's no point in really building something that's already well met in the market. And, and we do, we do run a business, so we do, we do make money from it now.

[00:07:14] Um, but that wasn't, uh, that, that wasn't how it started. It was never the plan.

[00:07:20] Matt Cromwell: Yeah. I, I, I gotta say, I was like, "Oh man, I gotta lean in on that line." That's... It's, it, it's so true, and sometimes it's also k- kind of heartbreaking. Like, we do things differently now because we're a business. Um, but in many ways, like, ugh, sometimes I wish we didn't do things differently.

[00:07:41] Uh, like sometimes I wish we would be scrappy and just be like, "Oh, I'm a business and I accidentally created something that generates new revenue for me." That would be really great. That, that... I, I don't know. Like, is there a way to have that creative energy and that accidental, um, like opportunity, uh, even w- in the midst of being a business?

[00:08:03] I, I think in some ways right now there's so many businesses that want that kind of energy right now, uh, that want that kind of like, "Oh, look at this. Why don't we lean into this random new opportunity?" Um, because if, if they're not leaning into those type of opportunities right now, they are probably declining anyway.

[00:08:23] I don't know. Uh, this might be, I might be going towards the end of the show already, but like, Jonathan, lean in a little bit on that. Like, why do you do things differently now that you're a business?

[00:08:37] Jonathan Hall: Um, well, I mean, so I think we still, we s- obviously our main goal is still to help people and to meet real needs.

[00:08:42] I mean, uh, but we also- Yeah ... in order to do that, we also need to have a, a revenue model that, um, uh- Yeah ... we have a growing team and we need to, uh, provide for them. Um, make sure that they have work to do that, that they, and they can bring home a paycheck at the end of the month. But I would say- Yeah ... w- on the accidental part, I think that that hasn't really changed all that much.

[00:09:00] I mean, we do- Yeah ... maybe be a little bit more proactive about going out and finding those needs than we were at one point, but we still definitely come across things. Even, it, one, one of the ways that products start sometimes is internal, like we have an internal need that we stumble across, um, reporting or, or um, e-commerce, often e-commerce related, that's kind of our niche, and, and we build a solution for that, that ends up being a plugin.

[00:09:23] And again, we didn't, it wasn't intended to be a product, it was just trying to solve something that we had, and now it's a, now it's a product we can sell because obviously if we have the need, likely other people do too. So I think that- Yeah ... the accidental ideation, a- and also feature requests too. You start building something and, um, and then you, but you don't necessarily have the full scope at the beginning until you start getting into it.

[00:09:45] And, um, and from there you, oh, y- you think of things that it can do you hadn't thought of at the beginning, or users bring things to you that it could do that you haven't thought about. So there's still a lot of- Yeah ... like we try to plan, but there's still a lot of unplanned stuff that goes on.

[00:09:58] Matt Cromwell: Absolutely.

[00:09:59] I wanna lean into another thing you said. You're saying so many little gems that you're kind of like tucking away. Um- ... and you, you said, "We're more proactive about looking for opportunity now." What do you mean? How, how are, what do you do there? What, how do you actually get more proactive about o- o- opportunity?

[00:10:19] Jonathan Hall: Well, for example, one of the ways I, I have looked for product ideas is by specifically and intentionally going to places where people complain about features that WooCommerce doesn't have. Yes. Or things that, um, n- needs that are not being met by the, by the, by WooCommerce or by WordPress, and thinking about, well, okay, so looking at how many up votes the feature request has, for example, and, and then thinking about could, could we do that?

[00:10:42] Could we solve that problem elegantly? Um, or if there's a plugin out there that solves that problem but doesn't do it well, can we do it better?

[00:10:50] Matt Cromwell: Yeah. No, I love it.

[00:10:51] Ian Misner: Yeah. Yeah, there's a couple of points that I, tying back to what you just said, Matt, the, the little nuggets in there. I mean, you did note that you're ignoring things when there's already like a commercially viable solution on the market.

[00:11:04] Yeah. I'd love to dig into that a little bit. But the, the other thought though that I was having as you were speaking is that y- again, back in the early days, I would often spend a lot of time just on like the subreddit or, you know, the WooCommerce- Mm-hmm ... community Slack, or even the support forums, and, you know, just you'd show up, you'd just help people just 'cause you're there.

[00:11:22] But that is where you sort of build this sort of like, you know, very broad and untargeted sense of what people-

[00:11:34] Matt Cromwell: Jonathan, did you lose Ian too?

[00:11:36] Jonathan Hall: I did lose Ian, yeah.

[00:11:38] Matt Cromwell: Okay. But you and I are both here. Okay.

[00:11:41] Jonathan Hall: Yeah, I can

[00:11:41] Matt Cromwell: hear you. I think... Hopefully we'll get Ian back soon. Um, no, that's, that's good stuff. I'll, I'll, I'll go back a little bit in time, too. I mean, I, I reminisce often about the beginnings of Give WP, um, with, uh, with Devin Walker and I, um, and our third partner, Jason.

[00:12:02] Um, he- we, we were looking for, um, trying to lean in. We, we had a bunch of different utility plug-ins. Um, we had a, some, like a Google reviews plug-in, a Facebook reviews plug-in, a Yelp reviews plug-in. We were doing all these, like, they were utilities. They were like, "You have reviews already. Put them on your website.

[00:12:22] Um, this is the easiest way to do it." And we had pro versions. We also had a, a quick checkout, a WooCommerce quick checkout, um, extension, where you can put the checkout physically on any page of your website that you wanted. Uh, so instead of, like, product over to the cart, over to the checkout, you're just like, you see a product, and you just click buy now, and it opens up the checkout immediately.

[00:12:47] Um, it was super hackie back then, honestly. Um, but those were our, our plug-ins. Um, and we were like, "We really need to, we really need to lean into a, a niche in our field that, where we both have experience." Um, and we wanted to, we wanted to make it happen, um, a lot more platform-oriented, not utility-oriented.

[00:13:13] And, um, and so we, um- We both had experience in the WooCom- in the non- nonprofit space, and we were like, the big problem to solve in nonprofits is donations on WordPress. That was, that was our kind of like aha moment. Uh, we were already plugin devs, we were web devs, we were doing lots of other things, but we went to a WordCamp together and we were like, "Hey, let's just go out to dinner, just you and me, and let's just figure out what problem we wanna solve."

[00:13:43] We, we, we didn't have the mo- the moment that you had where like a client basically w- uh, or an existing client basically came and told us, "Can you solve this problem for me?" We had like a whole history of different random interactions with different clients and different WordPressers and everything, and all it took for us was to sit down at dinner over like burgers and beers and be like, "What's a big problem we wanna solve?"

[00:14:10] Um, I think, I think in some ways it feels like this topic, this conversation is, is like we said, it's Oops I Became A Developer, but in some ways I feel like the whole subject here is more like, um, where does inspiration come from? Where does that spark originate? Um, and I, I, I think that's a fascinating subject because everybody right now in the product space wants to figure out where their next spark is gonna come from.

[00:14:39] Ian, I'm glad you're back.

[00:14:41] Ian Misner: Yeah, sorry about that. Having, um, what appears to be some tech difficulties, so.

[00:14:47] Matt Cromwell: Okay. As long as it's not like, you know, an earthquake, a UFO, or something like that.

[00:14:52] Ian Misner: No. It is raining, but I think it's more just- ... the internet broke, so yeah. Yeah, sorry about that. I mean, I, I heard the tail end of what you were saying there, so that's helpful.

[00:15:03] But, uh, what I was saying when I dropped is the, the whole spending a lot of time, you know, really just investigating like the broader needs of, you know, the, the space, the community, and not having like an agenda for it. You know, you're just spending time, you know, immersing yourself in what the users are already doing and, you know, finding the, the complaints that echo or mirror each other before deciding what to do next.

[00:15:25] And, um- 100% ... the, the thing that I found most interesting about, you know, being more deliberate and targeted about it is like I think I do that too, but I'm not convinced it's a good thing. You know, maybe it was better to just show up in the spaces and just try some random stuff every now and again, and w- was, you know, hoping to get your thoughts on that, I guess.

[00:15:47] Jonathan Hall: Yeah, I mean, it is, it, it goes both ways. I mean, so first of all, I would say that we- I also have less time to put into those ideas, and so I want to be putting my ideas, my time, and the company's time where it will have the biggest impact. So I think that's another consideration is, um, we're constantly squeezed for, for the capacity and time and what we can take on.

[00:16:11] And so if there's already a good solution out there, like I wouldn't want to reinvent the wheel and just create another good solution, um, because there's probably other needs that haven't been met well yet. And so using, using the time and the resources, I think, um, where they, where they have the most impact is, is part of the, the equation as well

[00:16:33] Ian Misner: Yeah. I mean, I, I do agree, I just, I don't want to. I mean, I would, it, it ultimately it's- You know, a, a lot of, uh, the WordPress space right now, and WooCommerce even more so I think, you know, a lot of the, you know, like, the solutions that have been around a long time, they're not necessarily, uh, like, amazing in all cases, right?

[00:16:50] Yeah. There's, there's some stuff that's well-established, strong businesses that there is room for a better product. Yeah. And, you know, people are complaining about a lot of them. And I mean, I don't, I don't have a through line here to make a point other than I don't know if necessarily that that should be a blocker.

[00:17:09] Matt Cromwell: Yeah.

[00:17:09] Ian Misner: Although I, I'm not even disagreeing. I'm, like, I do the same thing. I'm, you know, that's, it's more the premise that I'm questioning,

[00:17:16] Jonathan Hall: right? I don't- and I would say that when I say that we look for what's out there already commercially, I wouldn't say it's a complete blocker if there is already a product that's doing it but doing it poorly.

[00:17:26] I think that, um, and, and I think we've, we've, like, so that idea might still have value if we can just do it better. It might be harder to break into it if it's an established product and that people know, and even if, if they do it, if, if they don't do it well, they still have a, a recognizable name and we don't.

[00:17:42] Uh, but there's still opportunities there. So I wouldn't, I wouldn't exclude an idea just because somebody's doing it in, in some way. Um, but- Yeah. Yeah ... if somebody's doing it well, that's, that's... Yeah.

[00:17:51] Ian Misner: Well, and there is, like, a, an obvious, like, there's a switching cost problem, right? So, like, being 10% better is not even close to enough.

[00:17:57] You know, you gotta be, like, 100%- Yeah ... better for people to bother modifying what they're used to, what they do. That's not even just a matter of, like, migrating an existing site. You're talking, like, an agency, they're familiar with the solution, they know where all the hooks and filters are. They don't really care that you also do stuff or that even if you do it better, they just, they know it, so they don't wanna learn.

[00:18:16] So there is a big gap there. But then, like, how do you... You know, you talked earlier about, like, the limited time. You know, you have less time to spend on these ideas now. So instead of just accidentally happenstancing your way into something, what do you do instead to decide how to spend that time, how to prioritize?

[00:18:35] Jonathan Hall: Well, I would say we always want to put our existing products and customer base first. So obviously, um, a lot of, a lot of the time we have is spent on, uh, bug fixes and feature adds on the existing products, and that limits the time we have for new ideas. And then, um, when it comes to vetting a new idea, I think there's a, a lot of, like, different, the things we look...

[00:18:53] So, I've already mentioned, uh, competition, what other solutions are out there, and how big the need is. Like, is it a very small niche, or is it, like, if it affects every WooCommerce user, um, that's obviously much bigger. And, and then also, I mean, nowadays we, we could bring up the AI topic and we, we also have to think about how, how viable is this in the age of AI and how easy is it going to be to, uh, to replicate, like, the same functionalities.

[00:19:16] Are, or is it, or is it complex enough, or does it have specific characteristics that make it harder to just, uh, for somebody to just DIY it with AI, especially as we anticipate AI is gonna get better and better. We wanted to have a, a longer term, um, business model and be sustainable.

[00:19:30] Matt Cromwell: For sure. For sure. Uh, I'm gonna bring in a question here from Marcus Burnette, well-known guy in the WordPress space.

[00:19:40] He says he also accidentally became a plugin developer, it seems, but it's been slow to grow. Is there still room for new commercial plugin devs in the age of AI? And I'm gonna jump in and just say hell yes. There is lots of room for new plugin devs in this AI world. Um, like, honestly, I was on a call earlier today with an agency, and they said something that a lot, I hear a lot of people say, um, which- Five years ago, this would've been like, "What are you talking about?"

[00:20:19] They just said, you know, "We built this tool because, you know, everybody hates using Yoast SEO." And I just was like Okay. Like, I don't hate using Yoast SEO. I use it pretty much everywhere. I know it, I, it does the job. But at the same time, people think differently, they work differently. Kind of what Ian was saying earlier, like, you know, I actually just recently on, when I, when I launched the Roots and Fruit website, uh, I was like, you know what?

[00:20:47] I could use Yoast, but the truth is, like, when I normally use Yoast, I'm gonna buy the pro version, and I just don't wanna buy a pro version for this website right now. Let me see what else is out there. I found one called Slim SEO, and I started using that on Roots and Fruit just to experiment. And the truth is, I'm not missing out on anything yet.

[00:21:06] That site isn't, like, a big giant content machine or anything. Um, but it's working. It does the job. Uh, my only other option was that I was gonna vibe code something. Um, that, it was either, like, find something else that does the job well enough other than Yoast, or I was gonna vibe code something. And I think that's where a lot of folks are at right now, and if you can cut into that space and be like, "Well, we're not Yoast, and we're better than whatever you can vibe code," there's space there, you know?

[00:21:34] Even for something as prolific as an SEO plugin, which every single WordPress website needs right now. Um, form plugins, there's a bajillion of them right now, but I keep seeing new ones crop up all the time. And, like, even the point you made, Jonathan, which I think is super valid, saying that, like, but if somebody is doing it really well in the space already, then, you know, maybe that's not the space we wanna enter.

[00:21:57] The truth is, like, WooCommerce is doing that job really, really well, but I want, like, five more WooCommerce's out there. Like, I think there's lots of space in the e-commerce space to be competitive and to really push the space forward. Um, I think the fewer e-commerce plugins we have in WordPress, the worse WordPress is off, honestly.

[00:22:18] And even GiveWP, I've, you know, when we built GiveWP, we built it to, like, destroy that category. We were just like, "Nobody's going to do donations better than GiveWP." There was a, a, a, a WordPress plugin that just launched, like, four weeks ago called Mission. It's basically like, "Whatever, GiveWP, we're gonna do it just as good or better."

[00:22:40] And I'm just like, "Bravo, guys. Try it. Do it. Like, run. Let's see what happens." I think there's lots of space is all I'm saying. I, I can get really bullish on this, but Marcus, do what you're doing and keep doing more of it. I don't know. Ian, do you resonate, or am I full of it?

[00:22:54] Ian Misner: Yeah. I mean, I did, I think that there is a bit of, um, uh, there's definitely a space.

[00:22:59] I think the thing that people are still catching up to, myself included, is the bar is higher at every level. You know? Like, the, the functionality of, you know, a lot of the basic plugins that you see on, like, the Woo marketplace. I mean, you, you can one-shot with Claude probably half that marketplace, basically, right?

[00:23:19] And that is That, that, don't go make those. That's not a, that's not a viable path. That's a little bit of like, you know, you want to put together something free on .org, great. And there is a new thing for customer trust cropping up though, which like, we- I, I'm seeing competitors crop up for some of our bigger tools, like weekly, but half of them are gone after two months.

[00:23:43] Matt Cromwell: Yeah.

[00:23:43] Ian Misner: Or like the site's dead or whatever. And so users are going to be very skeptical of- Yeah ... new things. So can you be bigger or better or more g- like, you know, out in front, you know, make a name and a face around what you're doing? Or like what can you do to, to bring that trust back? But yeah, more importantly it's just you gotta do more for less, I think.

[00:24:07] You know? Mm-hmm. Or deliver a more complete experience or, you know, a better Support experience. Something. You need something to elevate you above what's already there.

[00:24:17] Matt Cromwell: Um- Differentiators.

[00:24:19] Ian Misner: Yeah.

[00:24:20] Matt Cromwell: What do you think,

[00:24:21] Ian Misner: Jonathan? Yeah.

[00:24:22] Jonathan Hall: Yeah. I, I, i- in terms of the original question, um, getting started as a commercial dev, a new, a new commercial dev in the age of AI, one thing that I've thought about is I, I, I really advocate for the freemium model and having a really solid free offering, because I think that, I mean, the reason someone would vibe code a solution is to save the money on pro.

[00:24:40] But if you, if you have a really solid free plugin, and there's really not no cost to the user to, to start using that and, um, it'll save them the time and hassle of vibe coding, right? So but then once they start using that free product, um, and they, then, then we go back to that whole commitment, like we've committed to a process and a UI, and we're familiar with it, and, uh, the user's familiar with it, and then, and that's the point where maybe there's, um...

[00:25:04] it's e- it's easier for them to jump to the pro version than, than start completely from scratch and vibe code something. Obviously, on the, on the other hand, they could also just vibe code an extension to your free plugin if it's a very simple thing they want to add to it, and that, that's another thing you have to think about.

[00:25:19] But I would say if you have a really solid free version, and then you have a really, a good feature set, additional feature set in pro, like a, a real value to upgrading to pro, and the price is right, there's a good chance that they'll just pay the money, upgrade to pro instead of starting over or trying to hack your plugin and make it, break it for future updates to make it do what they want, y- what, what they want to do that's in pro.

[00:25:39] Ian Misner: Yeah, no, I fully agree with that, and I, I think really is a, a key point on what I was saying, that, um, the give away more for less. Like, the, the free tier should be so strong that they trust that you are responsible for, like, that surface or whatever. Like, they think of you as, I, I'm thinking about our checkout product right now.

[00:25:57] You know? You know, if people are using the free product, uh, you know, full disclosure, you use the free thing, 80% of why that product's good is in the free thing. You know, it's a better UX for checkout. You know, y- they'd be great if you pay us, but the free thing probably is fine for most people. That's on purpose and, you know, we're, we're, we're gonna lean further in that direction for exactly why you're saying, Jonathan, which is people can just go vibe code it, but you gotta make it so they shouldn't.

[00:26:22] You gotta make it- Yeah ... so they're better off coming to you, and if they can get it done better or, or not take the responsibility for paying attention to how this thing is improving and made better, they can assign that to you. Um, this may be a little bit easier for e-commerce though, where, you know, they get to a point at which they're making a ton of money off of the store.

[00:26:41] Paying you a couple hundred dollars for a license might just not matter. You know, it might just be trivial. I don't know if that always applies beyond e-commerce quite as neatly though. Uh, do you guys have thoughts on that?

[00:26:55] Jonathan Hall: That, that is the reason, one of the reasons we focus on e-commerce. I mean, I, I love e-commerce, but also, um, I, I think that it, it stands to reason that people who are making money with your products are more likely to spend money on your products.

[00:27:07] So that's, uh, that's, that's the reason we target that. But then, um, the other thing that users who are vibe co- who are considering vi- vibe coding a solution should also remember is that it's not just a one-time thing. Like, there's, when you create a product, there's also- Yeah ... maintenance, and WooCommerce changes something and it breaks, or there's a security flaw, this, or, and that you have to address.

[00:27:26] Um, so it might be, it might be one thing to get it up and running and working, but the benefit of having a, a plugin that's, that's, like, one of our plugins, is that we support it and we, um, and maintain it, and so, and then there's updates. Um, and so you don't have to keep that, your own custom solution up to date by yourself- Mm

[00:27:43] with AI forever.

[00:27:44] Ian Misner: And I also think that is very much the logic that's always applied in the WordPress space, just AI makes it more obvious. But, you know, the whole, like, you should be vetting a product based on where it's coming from and who's building it, more so than the individual product itself, I think that's always been true.

[00:27:59] And, you know, you s- see this especially on WooCommerce sites, where everyone's got 50-plus plugins. You know, the, it's the 51st one that starts breaking things. Um- Mm-hmm ... just that problem's gotten bigger. Like, it's, it's become bigger now that people are just, like, winging it even more. And you may end up- Yeah

[00:28:14] with fewer plugins, but you have more suspect code that nobody's responsible for instead. Yeah,

[00:28:20] Matt Cromwell: yeah. I mean, the truth is, so many of the things that are- I mean, the w- the term we used to use for these things were bespoke. It's like a bespoke plugin, or in WordPress it was often a, a functionality plugin. Uh, I'm, I'm gonna stick specific functionality in this one kind of catch-all plugin in one way or another.

[00:28:40] Um, and if you're a, a third-party developer who comes into a website and you're like, "What in the world is going on here? I have no idea where this code is coming from," inevitably it all started in the functionality plugin. And, and that's what these AI solutions are now, is like everybody's like, "Let me create this thing.

[00:29:02] Let me create that thing," and nobody's documenting it particularly well, and it's so hard to figure out where it comes from. That's the big difference. That's the difference between, um, something that, that somebody generated with Claude or whatnot, uh, versus a product that actually is stable and reliable, and you can depend on it, and it's well documented, and it's backed by a team.

[00:29:23] Uh, I used to say the great thing about WordPress is that you have probably like 50 developers working on your website all the time, um, because of all the code that gets touched on that website all the time, and all the updates that get pushed all the time. Um, like who, uh, who's running an Astro website can say that about their website?

[00:29:43] Now, some of them would say, "I don't want 50 developers working on my website." Um, but I, I still think it's a benefit. It's a feature, not a bug, honestly. But the, the thing I like the most about this subject, Jonathan, I mentioned that before, is I love just the whole thing of like, you know, this happened to me because I just was listening to users.

[00:30:08] And that's, to me, that's the through line in all of this, is like the opportunity comes not because you put yourself in a closet and, and like make a product happen. Um, opportunity comes because you're out there doing things. Honestly, I, I have this similar conversation with my kids all the time. Like, they're like, "I wanna be like a YouTube influencer."

[00:30:29] I was like, "If you want that, you're gonna have to get out of the house. You're gonna have to like, have a life outside of the house. Uh, you're gonna have to go and do things," 'cause that's what all these folks are doing. They're going out and climbing mountains and videoing themselves doing amazing, crazy things all the time.

[00:30:45] That's what makes them so popular. I think it's the same thing with product developers. You're not gonna be a great, amazing product developer unless you actually talk to the people, um, that need your products, unless you're actually having interactions that are meaningful and figuring out what the, what the, what the pain points are and how you can uniquely help solve them.

[00:31:06] Um, to me, that's, that's the big crux of what you're saying here. I, I don't know if, if that resonates with, with you, Jonathan, but that to me is the... I mean, I tell my clients this all the time. This is, this... They, they tire of me saying it all the time, but I feel like that's what you're saying, right?

[00:31:22] Jonathan Hall: Absolutely. I think the opportunities come when you talk to people, and then that also shows up in the product. I mean, you can tell when a product was designed based, like for, for the users and based on the user's input versus when it's something, some idea, an idea somebody had, you know, a standalone.

[00:31:36] They just think this is a good business idea, but they never, uh, they never do any market research. They don't really look at what the users actually want. And you could, you could tell the difference in the end, end result at that point. And I think that that user-driven approach is going to result in better products, and better products is going to, like, benefit your business, so.

[00:31:54] Matt Cromwell: 100%. We've got- Yeah,

[00:31:57] Jonathan Hall: nuts ...

[00:31:57] Matt Cromwell: an active group of, uh, commenters here. I, I wanna showcase one more real quick. This is more of a comment than a question. Pressing Forward 100 says, "One of the things I see missing, uh, in developer relations in plugins." Oh, I think it's, "One of the things I see missing is developer relations in plugins.

[00:32:16] It's the developer that generally drives sales for plugins as they generally make their job easier." Uh, that's exactly what we're saying is, is that's the difference for, for all of us. Uh, every time I-

[00:32:27] Ian Misner: Yeah ...

[00:32:27] Matt Cromwell: uh, do this show with Ian, I, I'm always like, Ian and I are cut from the same cloth. Like, this is, this is, this is the, the kind of thing that we live on, right, Ian?

[00:32:36] Ian Misner: Yeah. Well, I mean, there is something really interesting in that comment that I think that we're trying to do more of with AI nowadays is like, so, uh, Checkout WC again as an example is like, you know, we acquired that plugin when they thought it was, because, you know, it boosts, it boosts conversion rate on checkout.

[00:32:53] Merchants care. Ultimately, the reason people buy it though is 'cause it's an agency likes deploying it on a site because it makes it easier for them to do a lot for their client really quickly. You know, making the developers, the people building the site's jobs easier is a big way to, to grow a product in the WordPress space.

[00:33:09] And especially now with AI, like we're, we're being a lot more conscious of, you know, ensuring there's hooks and filters for literally everything, that the plugin itself ships with like, you know, documentatio- a little map for your little AI guy to, to know where to look for things. And like, trying to ensure that, you know, with the, the more mature products that, you know, instead of replacing us, you're actually extending us instead to, to get the, the job done.

[00:33:35] Um, so you do a little bit of best of both worlds there. I mean, the big platforms, you know, like Give and WooCommerce and all that, they obviously have always done that. Uh, but as much as I think you have to do more for less nowadays, I think you have to bring that line way down, way further down and really- 100%

[00:33:52] think of, you know, the developers and the AI as like a first party, you know?

[00:33:56] Matt Cromwell: Yeah. I mean, I, I- I've seen that ... see smaller shops doing it too. I mean, I, I, I've seen, uh, folks like Derek Ashour on Conversion Bridge and, um, um, uh- I'm failing on names at the moment. Siren Affiliates. Um, I feel like an idiot. Um, Alex.

[00:34:18] Oh my gosh. Alex Daniels. Yeah. I'm so sorry, Alex. Uh, Alex is doing great work on Siren Affiliates. He told, told me the other day how much he's reaching out to, uh, to different folks who need affiliate programs in different ways, and just talking to them, and like that's what he's spending- Yeah ... his time on.

[00:34:33] And one of the things Derek said recently is, is the thing that changed, uh, his whole trajectory right now is just what he calls spending time on marketing, uh, instead of development, which is basically just going out and talking to his customers and, and asking them what they think and what they do. I mean, the, to me it's the, it's the whole, it's the whole sauce.

[00:34:54] Hey, there's Derek right there. There's

[00:34:55] Ian Misner: Derek right there. Yeah. It's, hey, that's my name. It's great. Um-

[00:34:59] Matt Cromwell: Luckily Alex isn't here to be like, "I'm Alex, you jerk, Matt. Geez."

[00:35:06] Jonathan Hall: One of the things I would say about, like, um, the developer and customer relations, um, and that's really cool about having a, a smaller, um, like, development firm is, um, that often those- the people doing the development are also the people in support and, um, and talking to the customers, seeing what the customers are emailing about.

[00:35:22] And I would say that even if your company grows to the point where you have a support team, um, dedicated, like level one support dedicated to, uh, um, answering those questions, still get to poke your head in there once in a while as a developer or as the person running the company, um, just to... So you hear directly from the users instead of like a secondhand version on something.

[00:35:39] Often, often the, the kind of the, the nuances of what users are asking for don't get passed along very well, even when tickets get escalated or logged as feature requests.

[00:35:48] Matt Cromwell: Yeah. Honestly- Yeah, I, I- ... one of the ways... No, you, Ian.

[00:35:52] Ian Misner: Well, I was just gonna say, I get, I get picked on at my, at my company for the amount of time I spend on customer support still.

[00:35:57] Just, you know, it's very much, uh... It, it- especially if like an agency or a development team shows up in there, you know, spending the time to like maybe overdo it a little bit is very intentional. Uh, and I mean, like that is something like if we get feature requests for some of our bigger plugins that come from a developer or an agency, and it's just like, we often just do them.

[00:36:19] You know? Like I, I have a whole rating system and a vetting process and all this other junk, but it's like, no, I know who this person is, and I know they do good work, and this is them, you know, telling me that they might keep using my product. So whatever it is they need, I'm just gonna go do that now.

[00:36:38] Yeah. And so, you know, diving in and just showing up in those spaces, uh, it's definitely... You, you could go chase 1,000 new customers or, you know, you could just, you know, the people reaching out to you- Yeah ... just do the thing they need instead, right?

[00:36:51] Matt Cromwell: Yeah. I'll say, this is gonna make me sound like a grouchy old man a little bit, but like, one of the ways that folks were very often keeping in touch with their customers, and they still do, but it's just different now, is Facebook groups, honestly.

[00:37:05] Um, Facebook groups are different now because the demographic is different. Like, it's only like m- like I'm the youngest person in a Facebook group, uh, often. Um, and it's just different now, you know? But, but the thing is Facebook group folks, they engage, they chat, they talk, they argue, they wrestle, they, they want, they need, and it's, it's like that's where all of this good juicy stuff comes from, you know?

[00:37:31] And since kind of like the demise of, of Facebook as a, as a platform for everybody, it's not a platform for everybody anymore, um, there's not a good alternative to a Facebook group anymore. Um, now you- you're like, "If I'm gonna have like a community, I'm gonna create my own community." Like is it gonna be a Discord?

[00:37:49] Nobody does that. Nobody's like randomly on Discord anymore. Um, you know, nobody's randomly... I mean, maybe Reddit. I'm kind of wondering if like custom Reddit communities is maybe an opportunity. A lot of folks are on Reddit accidentally now. Um, but Slack communities are a big thing, but Slack is so dumb about being a community.

[00:38:08] They, they don't wanna be a community. They wanna be like a business group or whatever. Um- Yeah.

[00:38:13] Ian Misner: I-

[00:38:14] Matt Cromwell: Grouchfield- For the W- ... down here is not happy about Facebook groups dying, so.

[00:38:18] Ian Misner: Yeah, for the, for the WooCommerce space, the subreddit is actually really decent. It's just- Mm ... the problem is there's so many types of conversations that aren't allowed to be had, so, you know, you only really see the weird little how-tos and all that, which it really takes away a lot of what you're talking about, Matt- Mm-hmm

[00:38:35] of like all these... The, the, the fights are actually more valuable than the how do I do this. Um, but I mean, there, there is a Slack community in that space as well which just doesn't have enough activity, so, you know, trying to find those spaces is usually the best thing to do. But like it needs to be moderated but not cleaned up, you know?

[00:38:55] Um- I'll tell you like- Jonathan, what do you do for that?

[00:38:57] Matt Cromwell: Oh, no,

[00:38:57] Ian Misner: go. I'm sorry. Go for it.

[00:38:58] Matt Cromwell: No, no. Go, Jonathan.

[00:39:00] Jonathan Hall: Oh, I, I miss the Facebook groups too. I had a, I had, I, uh... One of my longest running contracts was actually found in a Face group, Facebook group, uh, helping somebody with a random question that turned out to be, um, somebody I worked for for a long time.

[00:39:12] So I, um, I miss them too. We have a Facebook group, uh, I can plug it here, that, um, has almost nobody in it, but hey, you're welcome to join and, and join the, the party and maybe we can make it grow. Um, but yeah, I think, um-

[00:39:23] Matt Cromwell: What, what's the name of the group? You gotta plug the name of the group

[00:39:25] Jonathan Hall: Yeah, uh, I think it's just called BerryPress.

[00:39:27] Um, if you search for BerryPress in Facebook, you'll find our page and you'll find our group, so join the group. Um- Perfect. Yeah. Uh, but, uh, yeah, I think, um, I, I think that the WordPress org support forums, um, but again, that's obviously a very different, uh, a different sort of thing than Facebook groups used to be, so I, I can-

[00:39:44] Matt Cromwell: Yeah

[00:39:45] Jonathan Hall: I can sympathize with Matt there.

[00:39:47] Matt Cromwell: There are LinkedIn groups. I don't know if anybody does those. Like, ugh, it's just such a, such a struggle. Uh, honestly, like at Stellar or even with GiveWP, we had a Facebook group for forever. We came into Stellar, every big brand, Kadence, LearnDash, Events Calendar, they all had Facebook groups.

[00:40:05] Um, the Kadence Facebook group, group was off the hook. They were just like avid, just really into it, just all about Kadence, all about it, and I had worked my butt off to make the GiveWP Facebook group really active, as much as I possibly could, and we got like two posts a week. And that was like success for me.

[00:40:28] Um, but like the Face- the Kadence one blew my mind. I was like, man, this, this group is amazing, and I, it does take, uh, the right kind of product, the right kind of community. The thing that was a big difference, like when it comes to GiveWP, a donation plugin, these nonprofit folks, they, they need their donation form to work, and then they need to never think about it again.

[00:40:52] That, that was the thing. It was like, "Oh, it works. Great. I got a lot of other work to do. I'm out of here." They, they don't wanna talk on, on and on and on and on about their donation plugin. They just want it to work. That's it. But with Kadence, they are selling a lot to agencies, uh, and freelancers who are building for their clients, and there's like a million different needs, and the whole entire job is working with Kadence in one way or another.

[00:41:17] Um, and so they were just really into it. They also had a really great, um, uh, kinda like a third-party marketplace where people were, uh, buy, were creating and selling, um, their own templates, uh, for Kadence. Um, and that ecosystem created a lot of avid users with a lot of strong opinions too. Um, and I think that some of those pieces are kind of like the, the ecosystem that you have to build in order to foster this kind of feedback and this kind of opportunity.

[00:41:50] So, uh, in some way, like as I'm, as much as I'm saying go out and talk to your customers and, and that's where your opportunity will come from, like sometimes it's hard to, to just get the right amount of information or volume of, of content from your customers, and the only way that that changes is if you create an environment where they feel welcome and where they want to be there, and they actually want to participate, and that takes a lot of hard work for the right kinda product.

[00:42:19] Um, it is a subject I can go on and on about, but

[00:42:24] Ian Misner: Yeah, no, I find it interesting. I think I've always viewed it more as, like, just finding the existing space. I mean, we build on WooCommerce rather than having our own little space, right? So we try to go out of our way to find those existing spaces. As you were talking, though, I keep just thinking is, like, people are going to ask, you know, ChatGPT the questions that ended up in these spaces instead, and I, I don't know.

[00:42:44] I, I don't have a good question here other than maybe I ought to look for that, you know, at what replaces that now that those things are being handled elsewhere, you know?

[00:42:54] Matt Cromwell: Yeah.

[00:42:55] Ian Misner: Yeah.

[00:42:58] Matt Cromwell: I'd love to see- I really- ... like, smaller shops even thinking about, um, sponsoring or hosting, uh, local meetups again, honestly.

[00:43:07] Um, I, I always thought local... And more and more folks are saying that the in-person thing, um, is becoming more and more attractive. Um, uh, it's really sad to me the way in which, um, the COVID era kinda decimated the in-person events, um, and we're still not seeing a return. Like, I just saw some stats about, like, even, like, movie attendance.

[00:43:30] Um, movie attendance is cut in half compared to before, uh, COVID, but, um, it's growing back again, and so are in-person events, and I think there's an opportunity there for folks, too. It's time, it's effort, um, but I do think that there's some sort of dividends that are hard to quantify there.

[00:43:49] Ian Misner: Yeah, I think there is definitely a through line here of, like, you just show up in the spaces where the people are and just try to figure out how you can help them.

[00:43:56] Uh, I mean, that's kind of the summary of what we've been talking about here, I think. But maybe we should go to the, the best advice, actually. So you know, anyone, you know, we, we, we started with a premise. We've talked about why it's hard now. Uh, what would you guys do if you were somebody new considering, you know, how do you accidentally become a de- plugin developer now versus back in the day?

[00:44:18] Uh, Jonathan, if you wanna start.

[00:44:21] Jonathan Hall: Um, I think my number-one piece of advice looking at, like, where I started out solo and where I am now is, uh, number one, find a, a really great business partner because I am, I, I started out working on my own, and now I'm working with somebody who, um, has complimentary skills, and I've realized just how, how good it is to have somebody who can do the things that you're not good at, that complements your skill set.

[00:44:43] So I'm a great developer. I suck at design and front end and UI, and, um, and I, my partner, Anna, she's great at that. She's great at, um, business, the running the business side of things, too. So don't try to do everything yourself. Um, it's not worth it. Um, even if you're someone who likes to have control over everything, find someone where you don't need to have that level of control and, um, and work together because it's, it's rare that...

[00:45:06] You, you're not gonna have all the skills that you need to run a plugin business yourself.

[00:45:11] Ian Misner: Yeah, I really love that. Yeah, how about you, Karma?

[00:45:14] Matt Cromwell: Yeah, I, my, my, I mean, I've said this on a lot of different shows, and I said it I think multiple times here. The way to have opportunity is to make yourself available as much as humanly possible.

[00:45:26] Um, I say, uh, too many emails in my inbox is not a problem that I've ever had. Um, the, the more conversation I can provoke, the more conversation I can have, uh, the more I have information and input on opportunities and different ways that I can build out product and, uh, do all kinds of things. Like, the only way to create opportunity is to get out into the market space and be present and loud and available and receptive.

[00:45:56] Um, it's the only way

[00:45:59] Ian Misner: Yeah, and I, I would say for my best advice, I'm actually thinking a b- a little bit about the WooCommerce Slack right now, which is, um, you know, very much people are entering these community spaces, and they're, they're dropping in, they have a product already. They're, they're pitching, but that's like, that's how you're joining these spaces.

[00:46:15] You know, take the time to learn the community, and just show up and just be helpful for as long as you can, and that accidentally turning it into a business thing is probably gonna get easier, not harder. Um, you know, take the, take the time it takes to become known as the way to solve a type of problem, rather than just showing up with a done thing.

[00:46:36] So.

[00:46:37] Matt Cromwell: Love

[00:46:37] Ian Misner: it. Yeah. So that's a wrap. Jonathan, thanks so much for joining us. Where can people go to find you online?

[00:46:44] Jonathan Hall: Yeah, you can find us at berrypress.com, all the socials, Facebook page, Facebook group, plug that one more time, Instagram, LinkedIn, and then also, um, we'll, uh, we'll be live, we'll be at attending WordCamp Canada, and I will be attending WordCamp C- Canada in October in Vancouver, and then, um, it's, some of our team will also be at WordCamp Wroclaw in, uh, Poland in September.

[00:47:03] So, or October, sorry. Uh, sorry, I mixed, mixed it up. Wro- Wroclaw in October, Vancouver in November.

[00:47:11] Matt Cromwell: Awesome.

[00:47:11] Jonathan Hall: Awesome.

[00:47:13] Matt Cromwell: Hey, folks. The next two weeks, we got two big shows coming up, and a bunch of you have already participated, and I am reaching out this week to get the guests for the next two shows. We did some surveying and asking which brands are growing right now.

[00:47:29] The prod- the problem that everybody in the room is talking about all the time is that growth is hard for WordPress products right now, and so I was like, "Hey, who's growing right now? Let's find out what the story is. Why are you growing? Why are you not growing?" All of those things. We got a bunch of participants.

[00:47:45] We're gonna put them into two different panels. We're gonna talk about all the reasons why people are growing, and we're gonna talk about all the reasons why people are not growing. Next two weeks in a row are two big extra special s- episodes that you're not gonna wanna miss.

[00:47:59] Ian Misner: Yeah, awesome, and, uh, thanks again for Freemius for sponsoring WP Product Talk, and, uh, for everyone else, if you're enjoying these shows, hit subscribe.

[00:48:06] Free, easy, and helps us support, help support these shows. Thanks again, Jonathan, for coming on.

[00:48:13] Matt Cromwell: Thanks, everybody.

[00:48:15] Jonathan Hall: Good timing. Bye.