How to juggle the demands of creating a new WordPress product while maintaining and growing your existing product.

[00:00:00] Kim Coleman: Check, check, check, check. I'm

[00:00:38] Matt Cromwell: here. Yay. And do we have us back?

[00:00:44] Zack Katz: We have a me.

[00:00:46] Matt Cromwell: Hey,

[00:00:48] Zack Katz: how do I sound?

[00:00:50] Matt Cromwell: Perfect.

[00:00:51] Zack Katz: Nice. How you doing?

[00:00:55] Matt Cromwell: I'm hanging in there,

[00:00:58] Zack Katz: it sounds like. Uh, good. I'm, I'm also hanging in there. Black Friday. Cyber Monday is a whirlwind of emotion.

[00:01:08] Matt Cromwell: Yeah, exactly.

[00:01:10] Zack Katz: And

[00:01:11] Matt Cromwell: we, uh, we, we always go to Giving Tuesday.

[00:01:14] Mm-hmm. Um, yesterday and. And do a surprise until today. And so it's kind of still going on here, right?

[00:01:22] Kim Coleman: Yeah.

[00:01:24] I am ready for this to be over all the emails, all the, oh, I, I did this or that. Still on, it's gonna be a week of, is the sale still on,

[00:01:33] Zack Katz: right? Mm-hmm. I realized that my, yeah, I had a banner up on one website that I hadn't taken down.

[00:01:42] Anyway, yeah, there lot of checked boxes to be checked.

[00:01:47] Matt Cromwell: Yeah, and this is the time of year in Germany where. There's a lot more darkness than light. It is something I'm still trying to adjust to. Oh yes. It's

[00:02:01] Zack Katz: not like San Diego.

[00:02:04] Matt Cromwell: No, it, Jeff hit six o'clock here and it is pitch black and um, it didn't even get light here until eight in the morning, so it's weird.

[00:02:19] Yeah. Um, well, we're actually at the top of the hour. Actually. I need to, I don't think I even have the doc yet. Gimme a second. Um.

[00:02:38] Kim Coleman: Matt, I was laughing when you said notorious Kim Coleman because in college my, my closest friend in college, my nickname was Notorious KIM, and he was gangster C so it's very funny. That you wrote that it must still be my nickname that I just didn't know it.

[00:02:54] Matt Cromwell: I definitely, I definitely was, uh, trying to lean in on some of that.

[00:03:00] Zack Katz: You've got some notorious energy. I think Kim.

[00:03:04] Kim Coleman: Nice.

[00:03:07] Matt Cromwell: Um, cool. Well, uh, we're already a minute past, so we're gonna kick it off, um, since, uh, we are recording and whatnot and, uh, folks will catch it later. Then, uh, of course our, our number one top fan is here. I don't think he's here for me, but, uh, Jason Coleman.

[00:03:24] Good to see you. Um, 11th episode. Uh, welcome everyone to WP Product Talk. Um, wow. Uh, we keep going and it's still fun and still enjoyable. And every single week it's a different conversation, um, that I feel. Personally, I wish, uh, somebody would've done this for me, you know, eight years ago when I was just getting started with stuff.

[00:03:47] 'cause um, I feel like it's been really fruitful overall. Um, and uh, today we are talking about juggling new products with existing ones. Uh, there's a couple different ways I've said this online, like, um, how to balance priorities with, um, your new product launch against your. Existing meat and potatoes and things like that.

[00:04:09] Um, but I think it's a really good, relevant to, uh, topic, especially for any WordPress product shops who are always, um, tempted to launch that new thing. That's a conversation we had previously with, um. Leslie, uh, sim, um, should you launch that new thing? Well, uh, Zach is here with us today and he launched that new thing, and, uh, now he's wrestling with, um, trying to balance those two things, at least, um, uh, of, of many.

[00:04:37] So, um, and Kim and I have some stories to share too. So, um, uh, let's go around this circle real quick and do some introductions. My name is Matt Cromwell. I'm one of the co-founders of Give WP. Now. Working on Give WP and at at Stellar wp, um, with Kadence and Iconic and iThemes. Um, and I'm excited to be here today and I'd love to hear from our guest host Zach, can you introduce yourself for the world?

[00:05:04] Zack Katz: Hi everybody. Uh, I am Zach Katz and I run Gravity Kit and I also run Trusted Login. And, uh, we'll be talking more about those uh, today.

[00:05:15] Matt Cromwell: Awesome. And Kim, notorious Kim is here.

[00:05:18] Kim Coleman: Nice. Yes, I am Kim Coleman. I am co-founder of the WordPress membership plugin, paid Memberships Pro, and that's my meat and potatoes.

[00:05:27] Uh, but my appetizer is called Sitewide Sales. That's another product that, that we have. So, and it, it's one that I juggle, so we'll get into that more, uh, today.

[00:05:37] Matt Cromwell: Nice. So if you are here and you have questions or feedback or input, we would love to hear from you. Um, and uh, the best way to do that is either just to reply on this, um, uh, tweet right here and it'll actually show me that there's a comment.

[00:05:54] Um, and I can pay attention to that or you can use the hashtag WP product talk and I'll be paying attention to that as well. Um, and we can answer your questions or respond to your insights, uh, right there. Um, I also want to give a big shout out to, um, the WP Minute that's been, um, distributing these every week for us, um, which has been awesome.

[00:06:16] And, um, post status has been really kind to host our kind of back channel a lot. So, uh, shout out to both of those awesome WordPress communities.

[00:06:25] Zack Katz: Um, if you're not a member of either of those communities, you should join because that's where everybody in WordPress is so highly, highly recommended.

[00:06:33] Matt Cromwell: So many of all the, everybody's are there.

[00:06:36] Um, yeah, I mean we use post status 'cause yeah, that's where everybody's at. So, um, it's easy to to, to back channel these conversations and get prepared in time. So. Um, all right, so first things up. Um, we wanna just talk about why is this subject so important, um, uh, what is this really all about? Um, what is it like, uh, juggling new products with existing products?

[00:07:02] Um, what are some of the kind of nuances and troubles, challenges, uh, exciting aspects of it? Um, why is this such an important subject? Um, I think I might try to pass to Kim first on this one, Kim. Throwing you under the bus first. What do you think? What's, why is this one so relevant?

[00:07:20] Kim Coleman: Oh, no, no problem. Um, I think it's relevant because the, what got us all here, what got you to that successful first product was your ability to look at the landscape, look at your audience, look at the people using WordPress.

[00:07:33] Think of products that serve their needs. And that doesn't stop once you've launched one thing. Um, so when you've made that decision to release a second product or an extension, for example, with paid memberships Pro, we manage over 70 additional add-ons that extend the core features and functionality.

[00:07:49] Some of those for free and wordpress.org, some of them manage, um, through GitHub and sold with a premium license through our site. So, um, we could call that one product all of paid memberships pro, but it. Sometimes feels like a lot of mini products. Um, so it's super important because you're not going to be able to close your eyes to new opportunities and new things to release when you have an audience or a customer base, um, asking for you them.

[00:08:11] But you also are a human being and you are limited resource and you don't wanna go crazy. So we all have to learn how to juggle, but also continue expanding our footprint and get paid.

[00:08:22] Hmm. Zach, what would you

[00:08:23] say is kind of your, uh, significant point about, about juggling new products?

[00:08:29] Zack Katz: Yeah, so when you, we have Gravity Kit is a collection of a bunch of plugins, just like paid memberships, pro, just like easy digital downloads, gravity forms.

[00:08:38] All of these ecosystems have multiple products within them. And, uh, so we, we. Frequently come up with new products that are bundled inside Gravity Kit. Uh, I kind of see that as an expansion of an existing product rather than a new product. 'cause the product is the solution set for us. Um, so when I, when we have a new, a new plugin, I don't really consider it a new product, even though I, I guess I should, uh, for me, the, the trusted login, uh, coming, deciding to go ahead with Trusted Login, um, it really.

[00:09:13] Was a pain point that I felt so acutely that I felt like I, it needed to be tackled. Um, and the, when I have products that I come out with, with Gravity Kit, we, we decide based on customer feedback, but at some point you have to incorporate gut feel, uh, talking to other people and deciding, you know, uh, does it make sense to pursue it and get started on it?

[00:09:39] Matt Cromwell: Yeah. Yeah. Now for me personally, I think one, um, big aspect of this. It's really kind of like the business sense to some of it. Um, whenever you're launching a new product, um, that, uh, you know, goes alongside your meat and potatoes product, uh, you're appealing to a different, uh, audience. And often in, um, business speak, you talk about it in terms of vertical, like this is a different vertical.

[00:10:07] Um, and that can be really valuable and beneficial to me. Uh, adding a second, um, vertical to your business because it, it opens up new audiences that you can't reach with your original one. Um, but that exact, uh, opportunity, I think is also a risk, um, because, um, you don't necessarily just like multiply your team overnight.

[00:10:29] So you're in many ways having to balance that opportunity with, um. Being able to figure out if you have capacity, um, with your team to be able to do it. Um, so I, I think it's really relevant just in terms of thinking about your, your business as not just a, a one product shop. Um, there might be other verticals that your team is really skilled at that can tackle.

[00:10:52] Um, but you know, trying to figure out whether or not you have capacity or not is the significant part, I think. Um. Yeah. Any thoughts or other comments there about like, relevancy here?

[00:11:05] Zack Katz: Yeah, and I think we'll talk about this more later, but the, one of the things that we, I didn't really fully appreciate was how much going to market takes, uh, how much marketing, how much promotion, how much, um, web development, how much, uh, like time and effort, so.

[00:11:26] We have our product launched, technically, internally, we are using it. Uh, but boy, it takes, it's a whole nother level, uh, and it takes a lot more work to get it to the, to, um, to get it released. Mm-hmm. And that's, we do that all the time with our existing vertical, but mm-hmm. When, but with trust, the login, for example, we're now talking to a whole different audience and we need a whole d like, it's a, it's a public launch rather than, um.

[00:11:54] A new, A new update.

[00:11:56] Matt Cromwell: Yeah.

[00:11:57] Zack Katz: Yep. Absolutely. If you could all

[00:11:58] Kim Coleman: see me, I'm just shaking my head weirdly to no one because it's just all resonating here very deeply for me. So, sorry, Twitter doesn't have the video yet, but. Hundred percent true.

[00:12:11] Matt Cromwell: Start waving the hanky. Amen. Yeah, no. Another one that we, um, talked about previously was, uh, well, no, that was the Leslie Sim one.

[00:12:23] Um, why, why? Uh, you should or shouldn't launch that next product. And then, and those pain points are what we're talking about here in some ways. Um, and like previously I shared about why we didn't launch a product. And it was a lot of the things you're talking about, Zach, it was like we thought about, well, post-launch, are we actually gonna be able to market this?

[00:12:41] Are we gonna have a good go to market strategy? And we just didn't feel confident in that, so we just didn't launch. Um, and I'm still kind of torn about that. Um, but um. Yeah. But once you do pull the trigger, uh, how do you keep going? Mm-hmm.

[00:12:58] Zack Katz: So I'll kind of jump ahead in our conversation, I think, and, and talk like one of the people that helped develop trusted login.

[00:13:07] Is also a, uh, has experience with product launches and marketing. And they did a great job with the development and they, I, I'm confident they would've done a good job with the marketing and the, the, the launch of the product. Um, but when it comes down to it, they wanted, uh. Too much ownership of the, of, they wanted ownership of the product.

[00:13:30] Uh, and I didn't feel comfortable giving up that percentage of it. So that's something that, you know, in my, you know, recommendations for people thinking about this, I think about, um, what you're willing to give up in terms of the ownership stake, uh, how much you're willing to pay. Like what, what the scale is there for ownership stake, an hourly rate, or like project rate.

[00:13:55] Um, because it's not gonna be free to launch it. Uh, but it's also, if I had gone with them, it probably would be way further along than it is right now, so. Mm-hmm. The, it's a, it's a calculation there that I, I'm not sure that I made the right choice, but it's, uh, I, I decided I wanted to have more control.

[00:14:14] Mm-hmm.

[00:14:15] Matt Cromwell: Yeah. Well, let's, let's set the stage just a little bit. I actually think mm-hmm. Um. Good doing what we call story time would be really valuable right now, kind of setting the stage for everyone in terms of, well, what are we actually talking about here? So Zach has talked a little bit about, uh, gravity kit and adding trusted login as well.

[00:14:32] Uh, but I, so I wanna talk a little bit about those, um, that situation. Uh, Kim, um, can you talk a little bit about, um, your situation with launching, um, your second product?

[00:14:43] Kim Coleman: For sure. So we, um, have our core product. You know, this is my story, kind of where we are today. We have our core product, a membership plugin, and we do build a ton of add-ons when we see like a need and it for that use case.

[00:14:57] And we had one add-on that was getting a lot of adoption was very useful to us, used internally. Like I was shaking my head, Zach, when you said. That, uh, we use it in internally because this was a product that we were using, finding a lot of success with, and we saw a broader audience for, so paid memberships Pro, it was called sitewide Sales for Paid Memberships Pro.

[00:15:17] It had one module, it just worked for membership sites using our plugin, and we realized this, uh, same kind of process. Sales automation could work for WooCommerce and for easy digital downloads. So we took time to expand it and develop modules for those other two plugin ecosystems, and we made, uh, kind of, uh, forecasts for what that could look like.

[00:15:41] We said, oh, wow. Look at what percentage of paid memberships pro users are using this. Look at all the sites that already used WooCommerce. Look at all the sites that use EDD, how we can estimate these things. Uh, the audience is there. That's huge. If we even get a fraction of a fraction of what we're expecting, it's going to take off, right.

[00:15:58] Um, and that hasn't been the case. It's been still an ongoing grind and I largely attribute that, attribute that to, like you said, Zach, that launch and keeping the conversation moving about the product is challenging when you're juggling. So I'm at that place now where it's kind of the afterthought. We put a lot of focus on it through the Black Friday sales season because it's a useful tool.

[00:16:22] It's gotten traction through this season, but how am I going to keep that going? When the sales season is a little quieter come January and February of next year. So that's, um, the major thing is that you can develop a great product, but if it's not being marketed, no one's going to know about it and you are not reaching that new audience because you don't already have inroads to reach them.

[00:16:43] So, super challenging. Kim, we, that's my sad story.

[00:16:48] Matt Cromwell: We actually have a good question for you here from Matt Pritchet. He says, how do you all handle keeping that many products without a massive team of support and engineers?

[00:16:58] Kim Coleman: So within the paid Noritz Pro ecosystem, we kind of assign every add-on a mini CEOA mini product manager and site.

[00:17:06] I'm Sitewide sales mini product manager. Um, and that was interesting when you were talking, Zach, about not having this other person kind of lead the launch. What I would see that as is giving that product its own little CEO. Um, and big consulting agencies have this, they have project managers, let's say, for, uh, their consulting agreements and their sales, um, relationships with certain vendors.

[00:17:30] Um, the same could be true in your product. You give someone kind of the final say, who's the boss of that product, whether it's an add-on, it could be a tiny add-on or for sitewide sales. If it's me, it's a little bit of a larger endeavor. And they are the champion within your team who cares the most about it being feature, complete about it, being bug free, about it being spoken about, about it being marketed.

[00:17:55] Um, and it's pressure on some people out of it. Mostly it's our developers who take that role and they don't have natural marketing skills. Um, but yeah, that's how we've kind of divided the responsibility of that many products with a small team.

[00:18:09] Matt Cromwell: Nice. Good question, Matt. Keep 'em coming. WP product talk. Um, yeah, I think on my side, uh, I've shared about this in the past.

[00:18:19] Um, and I know that you all, um, listened to every single minute of our weekly podcast, so it's, uh, I'm just, uh, but uh, for us, we kind of backed into having a second product. Um, we actually started off with having a bunch of small products, uh, originally. Um, and, um. Give was added. Uh, so give was like the second product and well, it was really like the sixth or seventh or eighth product honestly.

[00:18:45] Um, and after Give started having so much success, we started weaning down. And one of the things we had, we had several different kind of, uh, online reviews, plugins. Um, and we, um, decided to ship a really, uh, a, a brand new product called WP Business Reviews in order to consolidate all the various individual social platform review, uh, social review platforms into one plugin instead of a bunch of individual ones.

[00:19:13] Um. The decision to do that really was driven by how having multiple different products, um, taken away from our attention from Give WP was really distracting. Um, and so bringing them all under one umbrella, uh, helped us to, to focus our team, um, and focus our support efforts and things like that. Um, that's, that's kinda why we went that route one.

[00:19:37] And then once it's been out there, it's actually been relatively stable, relatively straightforward. Um, we have, uh, one person managing support. It is, um, not generating, um, all the attention and the revenue and customers that we would love to see it. Um, do. Um, and that's. I think if we gave it more attention, maybe it would.

[00:19:57] Um, so that's that. And that's exactly where that attention is of like, how do you balance these things? Like, is WP business reviews not as successful simply because we're not giving it as much love as we give, give probably. Um, but um, that is a choice that we're constantly making all the time. So,

[00:20:15] Zack Katz: yeah.

[00:20:17] Matt Cromwell: Zach, what about you? Story time?

[00:20:19] Zack Katz: Yeah. Story time.

[00:20:21] Matt Cromwell: Yeah. You've got this kind of launched and how's it going? How's it feeling?

[00:20:24] Zack Katz: So we haven't launched internally, we've been running. So Trusted login, uh, is a way to integrate, uh, support, granting support access into your plugin, uh, that is secure. It's really easy.

[00:20:39] It shows up in Help Scout on the sidebar. So if the customer is granted access and you're doing a ticket, you can just click a link and it automatically logs you into their website. Uh, using all sorts of encryption and it's, it's been working great for us for the past year plus. Um, we just reached a year of using it internally and the customer support team at Gravity Kit, they're awesome and they, every time we have trusted login down for a quick bit of maintenance, they're like, oh gosh, when is this gonna be back up?

[00:21:13] Uh, because it's so archaic to have to send requests for username and password. So it's been growing great internally. Uh, and that's kind of also a way that I have found, I have become a bit complacent for pushing harder on it because it's working for us. Uh, but the question is like, how do we get this into more hands?

[00:21:35] Uh, how do we drive it further forward? So. When we have gravity kit with 18 different add-ons or nine different add-ons with like extensions to end layouts on some of our add-ons, we've got a lot of different product management stuff going on, and I'm honestly not a very good product manager or project manager.

[00:21:54] So, uh, to have me in charge of doing both, uh, becomes really, really tough. Um, so. I have started to push myself to, uh, reach out to people to integrate with other people's, uh, plugins and, you know, share to, to get the cadence up. But that is a struggle for me personally because I'm not really a block some time out on their calendar kind of guy.

[00:22:20] Um,

[00:22:24] Matt Cromwell: yeah. Okay. Yeah. Uh, sounds familiar too to me. Sound familiar to you, Kim?

[00:22:31] Kim Coleman: Very much so. Zach, do you mind sharing quick, like the monetization path for Trusted login? Because I don't know, that just popped in my mind, and I guess I'm thinking of it because we will probably talk about like, what are we expecting revenue wise for these products?

[00:22:45] Um, but I haven't seen what that's priced for, if it, if you even don't know. That's fair to say.

[00:22:49] Zack Katz: Right? You, the pricing has been a question because. The value is in the amount of time it's saved, but there's also, uh, unseen value, which is customer satisfaction by having an easier support process. Um, we've gone through a bunch of different concepts early on and we've, I, so far we've landed on I the number of support seats, um, with price per seat.

[00:23:16] 'cause that's kind of a standard way of doing it in like in the support desk, uh, the help desk community is. Per seat.

[00:23:24] Matt Cromwell: Yep.

[00:23:25] Zack Katz: Cool. That

[00:23:25] Matt Cromwell: makes sense.

[00:23:26] Zack Katz: But there is a limited market for trusted login. Um, so that's something that when you're juggling what products to build, one of the questions is, you know, how big is the potential addressable market?

[00:23:39] Trusted login is kind of, uh, built, it's built to be a WordPress plugin integration. Uh, it could be other things in the future, but WordPress is, it's, you know, foundation and. So I guess it's limited to the number of Plugin and Veeam developers. And then it's also limited to possibly, you know, agencies to, to grant easy for agency customers to grant access to their sites.

[00:24:04] Uh, so it has a smaller addressable market, so there is a ceiling to how much money it could potentially make with that being the focus.

[00:24:16] Matt Cromwell: Interesting, interesting. Yeah. Yep. Um. So next couple things. I think one of the things that we're, um, touching on quite a bit is, um, balancing, uh, time management, team management.

[00:24:33] That kind of seems to be a big key to it, even though Zach, you just were saying that's actually not your strength as, as the leader of your company, that's not your strength of doing project management and things like that. It's definitely not necessarily strength of mine. I have a feeling that Kim is probably awesome at it.

[00:24:49] So yes,

[00:24:53] Zack Katz: I have that sense too. Yeah.

[00:24:56] Matt Cromwell: So, but being that, that's the key, like how do we cope with adding this? Um, like is I, I, I guess, are you considering right now Zach having, hiring a position somebody to, to do the project management then for, for this type of thing? Because it seems like it's a big key to being able to balance priorities across the teams, across the products.

[00:25:15] Zack Katz: Yeah, I've tried hiring some project managers recently and it hasn't really worked out, so. Mm-hmm. That is something I, right now the team on Trusted Login is mostly in the backend. They're working on a Laravel stuff. It's, it's a Laravel project, uh, for the SaaS part of it, and then it's a WordPress project for the, for the integration, the, the SDK, the, all that stuff.

[00:25:38] So I, I've been doing the integration WordPress stuff. They've been doing the SAS stuff. And then I have another person who does the server stuff and the SaaS and the server stuff are making progress. Uh, but in terms of the, the user interface, like the customer facing stuff that's on me. Uh, so yeah, I definitely need to be better at hiring somebody to do this and not just doing it myself.

[00:26:05] Matt Cromwell: Yeah. It feels like also trusted login is gonna be a very heavy marketing, uh, effort. Um, since it's not, well, I don't know you, it wouldn't, um, you wouldn't be using leveraging like wordpress.org for a marketing funnel. You're gonna really have to get the word. I mean, fortunately you're talking to all of your audience right now.

[00:26:26] So, um, everyone listening in here is probably your audience. Um, but, um, uh, it feels like it's a heavy marketing effort, right?

[00:26:35] Zack Katz: Yeah, I think it's a word of mouth and the more people see plugins using it and seeing the dedicated grant support access menu item. Uh, that makes it easy for them to grant support.

[00:26:46] Like the more people use it, the more people see it being used. I think it, the word of mouth will happen. Um, mm-hmm. And my, my goal is to, to talk to people I know and have, uh, see if it's a good fit for them for their products. And if it is, then that's a large percentage of the plugins that I use on my own sites.

[00:27:04] So, um, hopefully. That is a good way to get the word out. I'm also, I had a huge marketing plan. It was gonna go really well and then March, 2020 happened and, uh. There were no word camps. I was gonna go to pretty much every word camp and talk my, talk to everybody in person and get everything set up. So, uh, it, it's been since, you know, 2020 that I've been trying to get trusted, login promoted, uh, and the go to market strategy changed 'cause of COVID.

[00:27:38] Yeah.

[00:27:40] Kim Coleman: That's super challenging. Yeah. When I think of. That sounds like you have been, you were willing to devote a lot of time to traveling. I mean, word camps are a joy to attend. They do other things for the Gravity Ki brand as well. But you are gonna take like time out of your calendar year in a strategic way to dedicate to marketing that product.

[00:28:01] Um, everyone here probably knows that I took a sabbatical to focus on our product and it, it was because I couldn't, like you said, Zach, I couldn't. Pencil in a period of time in my week that forced me to work on this. Um, I was too distracted by other things. I would put it off. I would say, oh, well, I said Monday, but now I'll do it Wednesday.

[00:28:21] Oh, I said Wednesday. I'll do it Friday. Um, and, and I thought at the time I had my team bolstered to a place that they could support me disappearing like that, you know, I. Luckily have Jason who's listening on this call is, uh, the person that could kind of filter things that were, you know, terribly happening in the team that I could come back and, and peek into.

[00:28:39] But it really took me, uh, taking that time to say like, if we believe in this product, I'm going to disappear for six weeks. I'm going to focus on it. Um, and I think that helped me also renew my interest and joy in that second product. Um, I'm not to this day. Structuring my time like specifically for it.

[00:29:02] Uh, and I'm looking ahead to how that looks in the future. But I will say that that helped me do some things to get it to a baseline where I thought we could continue to work on it on a side period, I guess I'll say. But, um, yeah, yeah, still I think it's very hard because you have something that's already making you money and you know, I could spend.

[00:29:24] Two hours working on this and probably move X thousand dollars of revenue. Or I could spend 10 hours working on this and maybe make nothing like. Yeah. Those trade offs are very natural in your brain as a human being. Mm-hmm.

[00:29:36] Matt Cromwell: As an

[00:29:36] Kim Coleman: entrepreneur. And yeah, I

[00:29:38] Matt Cromwell: absolutely love that idea though, of like having like a work sabbatical just focused on this new product.

[00:29:45] I mean, if you really believe in it, you, if, if it's an investment that you want to. Put into your company, uh, into your business, um, then dedicating that time, time, time is money in this case for sure. Um, uh, in such a dedicated, focused way, I think is really, I mean now I'm trying to think of other excuses why I might do a work sabbatical.

[00:30:07] Um, there's lots of ways I could do something like that, but it sounds that, that sounds really useful and really valuable. Um, and it is a big bet too. It's like you're, you're taking a bet, you're saying, if I spend this time, it's gonna help me to launch this new thing. And I believe in this new thing enough to, to dedicate this time on it.

[00:30:25] So, um, that's cool. I love that idea.

[00:30:28] Kim Coleman: But I mean, speaking of bets, that you can do that with someone else's time. You can say, I'm going to spend 30 grand over the next. Six months or three months on someone who I think is a growth hacker and really the person I need to back this and what will, how far will we be in that time?

[00:30:45] You know, maybe not 30 grand to three months. That's a lot for a.

[00:30:50] Zack Katz: Yeah. And then that 30 grand, where's that coming from? It's coming from meat and potatoes. So, uh, the Gravity Kit team, you know, they have been on board with Trusted Login and I made sure to tell them, you know, when I was planning my time and I said I was gonna take every Friday, I was gonna work on Trusted Login.

[00:31:08] Um, they got on board and they said, yes, this is worth pursuing. And so I really appreciated that. Uh, but then it came down to, well, there's a lot of different. Stuff going on with Gravity Kit that needs my attention and trust. The login is working and it, the, the challenge now is, is getting it too, like getting it out there before it's too late, right?

[00:31:35] Mm-hmm. The, the urgency is still, is there again. Um

[00:31:38] Kim Coleman: mm-hmm.

[00:31:39] Zack Katz: For, for trust, a login, especially now that Black Friday, cyber Monday is done. Mm-hmm. Because this is one of our most important times for our businesses. Um, and thankfully the, this week is the end of the, that, that mayhem.

[00:31:59] Matt Cromwell: Nice. I I like that idea too, of dedicating a Friday, uh, every single Friday for a while. I think that takes, um. Discipline for sure. 'cause it could be super easy to get pulled back into Slack on those days, or super easy to get distracted by meetings or, or pulled in by customer needs. Um, things like that.

[00:32:21] Um, but um, yeah. Uh, did you have, have you worked on like your, your go-to market strategy right now in terms of how to get trusted login out there for others?

[00:32:33] Zack Katz: I've been starting to reach out to people mm-hmm. Finally, and integrate Trusted login into their plugins, set up a demo site for them, uh, writing and making sure the documentation is up to date for, for how that would work.

[00:32:48] Uh, so I've been trying to, my go-to market strategy has become very personal because, uh, I don't have the, the. Oomph right now to, to do a larger push. I hiring takes a lot of work. Uh, so I, I just don't have the focus to do more than what I'm doing. But what I'm doing is finally, you know, reaching out to people and getting, getting things integrated.

[00:33:13] So, yeah. Nice. I think

[00:33:16] Kim Coleman: that's the, you know, do things that don't scale. Go to market strategy, which is a really useful one, especially in this case where there is, you know, relationship building, you know, the people you need to talk to. So you're talking to them. I think maybe it doesn't scale, but it does get some more people adopting, giving you the feedback you need to, to keep it going or to say like, this is a great tool that we will keep using and that's fine, you know?

[00:33:40] Mm-hmm.

[00:33:41] Zack Katz: Yeah.

[00:33:41] Kim Coleman: It requires you to be using Help Scout, is that what you said, Zach? Can't we use Free Scout? So I'm like, can we use this?

[00:33:47] Zack Katz: Oh, totally. At the moment, the only thing we've built is Help Scout, but it's, there's an API endpoint that allows integration with Free Scout would be fine. Yeah.

[00:33:55] Kim Coleman: Okay. It's also Laravel.

[00:33:57] Cool. Hmm. Jason? No.

[00:34:02] Matt Cromwell: So what's your take then? Um, Zach, thinking about, okay, um, trusted login is out there for anybody to purchase, um, and get onboarded with, and things start to take off. Um, maybe it's even getting adoption quicker than you expect. Uh, what's your approach then to, um, um, prioritizing this for your team to be able to support it and keep it going?

[00:34:26] Zack Katz: Yeah, I think the, I've looked for this person, like I said, I, I need a project manager who, who's able to, I'm an ideas person. I'm a developer. I am not a project manager. Uh, and so I think the, the biggest thing is somebody to help relieve some of the, you know, puzzle work in terms of planning releases for Gravity Kit, uh, so that I can also focus on Trusted login because trusted login.

[00:34:53] Uh, it has, it needs a couple more things, and then I think it's, it's good for, uh, multiple years in terms of the functionality. Uh mm-hmm. It's, it's a pretty simple concept that is executed well. Right. That's the goal. So hopefully it'll be feature complete and then it won't really need more than, um, you know, slight improvements rather than big new pushes.

[00:35:18] Matt Cromwell: Mm-hmm. Yeah, so your main thing is that you feel like if you have a good, solid project manager who's able to prioritize things well then that's gonna help grease the wheels so that nobody is spending too much time on trusted login before it, before it's generating the revenue that it needs to generate.

[00:35:37] And that no balls are being dropped on Gravity kit. 'cause that's still the meat and potatoes basically,

[00:35:43] Zack Katz: right?

[00:35:44] Matt Cromwell: Yeah. Yep. That makes sense. So did you, you're already, you basically have already set aside budget and whatnot for that role and things like that.

[00:35:54] Zack Katz: We are still looking at the sales numbers. That's the meat and potatoes, uh, thing.

[00:36:00] Yeah. And I, I don't wanna starve Gravity kit. So, you know, our team is doing a great job and we're, we've been releasing a bunch of stuff, but I, I mustn't hurt Gravity kit, uh, in the process of growing trusted login. 'cause that's not fair to our customers, that's not fair to our team. So I wanna make sure that as we grow, we do it responsibly in a way that, um, is not detrimental to either side.

[00:36:24] Matt Cromwell: Yep. Yep. Absolutely.

[00:36:28] Kim Coleman: Yeah. I'll share for, for our second product, it's kind of right now until we see more use and more feedback, um, which I'm getting a lot after this week's Black Friday, the people that used it for their sales, um, I think we're kind of at like a new feature hold for the product. Uh, we'll bug fix, um, and just wait and keep talking to people.

[00:36:50] I'm trying to find reasons to use it for a WooCommerce or an EDD implementation because I put it through the ringer with the Pay Noritz Pro integration, but I'm not using it for the other two modules. And I think the more that I can understand those use cases and, and those sites, I don't know what kind of WooCommerce site I would start.

[00:37:08] Uh, if anyone has ideas, you know, hit us up, we'll, we'll think of something. Um, but some kind of site we could start that would use, even if it was a virtual or digital product. Um, to use it in those capacities, I think it would help us understand it better if I can't get the customers to talk to me about it.

[00:37:25] Mm-hmm. But yeah.

[00:37:28] Matt Cromwell: Yeah,

[00:37:28] Kim Coleman: it's interesting. Yeah. I really, it's like, yeah, you have to have somebody that really wants to champion it in your team and, and cares to keep pushing it forward, like I said earlier. And that's, uh, hard when, when your time's still limited. Go ahead. Mm-hmm.

[00:37:42] Matt Cromwell: Yeah. No, I, I like how we kind of backed into the subject of project management.

[00:37:46] Um, and I, I don't want to beat it too much, but like, it is something that, that, um, we're starting to have a little bit more experience with over, um, on, uh, with give and other things when it's working. It's amazing. Like when you have somebody who really knows how to project manage things really, really well, it's phenomenal.

[00:38:05] Um. But I do think it's a super challenging position and, um, it, it's hard sometimes to really show exactly how it's greasing all the wheels or, and whatnot. But it definitely takes somebody who has a lot of, um, confidence and who is assertive and, um, knows how to, uh. Set priorities and, and, and handle people without managing them and, um, things like that.

[00:38:30] I, I do think that in the WordPress space in particular, that, um, this role is, uh, there's probably not a whole lot of, um, people serving that role in the, in the WordPress product space at the moment, but I definitely can see that it's, um, that there's more and more need for it, uh, as these. Shops keep growing.

[00:38:50] Project management is gonna be a bigger and bigger felt need across the board. Um, does that echo with both of you?

[00:38:57] Kim Coleman: Mm-hmm.

[00:38:58] Yeah. I mean, we've, we've exchanged the idea of a project manager for like systems and like mm-hmm. It, it works like the systems we have, the way we do shape up, they help in the absence of a specific project manager across all products, let's say.

[00:39:16] We have people who, you know, manage development and we have Jason and myself, and we have a handle on everything. But the systems really help the projects because as soon as we realize like a hole in, in something we're developing, or a gap in a piece of content flow, we can improve the system, add another checklist item, add another description.

[00:39:37] So we, um, we let the systems project manage, I guess I would say, like having enough workflows can be, if you aren't ready to hire someone. Even just starting very small, just like steps 1, 2, 3, what does this look like? Or, um,

[00:39:50] mm-hmm.

[00:39:51] Yeah, starting small and, and they've grown significantly. All of the systems and the checklists and the processes and the templates, um, they've really helped.

[00:39:59] And, and having those now means that the person you bring in for a project management role has a starting point to look at and understand will ramp up faster and would become more immediately valuable because they have something that teaches them. Yeah, from, from day one. And it's not just observe, observe, observe, you know, or use my system, which doesn't fit.

[00:40:20] You know, a project manager can come and say, well, we're gonna start using Asana now. And if nobody felt comfortable with that system, or you yourself as CEO, hate Asana and hate that workflow, hopefully you get that out in the interview process. But, um, either way that, um, it helps that you can say, this is the flow we use.

[00:40:37] You implement it, use it for a while, and then add your special sauce.

[00:40:42] Matt Cromwell: Interesting. We, we actually love Asana on our side, uh, and I, I agree with you. Yeah. We love it. Um, and we actually, our development team just recently started using Asana. Even like, of course, we're using GitHub for different purposes, but, um, we've broken down all of our, we're use, we use ShapeUp as well.

[00:41:00] This is, maybe I might need to get Jason Adams here and we'll talk about like some of this stuff in detail at some point. 'cause I think it's really interesting 'cause I agree with you, Kim. Like, uh, one thing I've been trying to say more and more is like, systems, not meetings. Like I, I, I've been trying to implement that as much as I can.

[00:41:16] I. Um, but, um, the, the ability to, um, use task management alongside, um, your priorities and things, I think is really valuable too. And, um, the way we've implemented it has definitely made our development team more efficient, I will say, um, overall, but, uh, I feel like we're getting a little off course, but it, it, I think that the, the, the connecting thread in all of this is like, how do you.

[00:41:41] Balance, uh, your, your team's time and their priorities when you're juggling so many different projects and things, and project management is a big key there.

[00:41:51] So, uh, I think we're about time to wrap things up. Um, what we'd love to end with always is just go around the horn and, um, give, uh, our best, uh, one to two sentence, two to three sentence advice for pro WP product shops that are, uh, talking about this or thinking about, um. Launching a new product or have launched a new product and how they are, might balance it.

[00:42:13] What's your best advice for those folks? Um, Zach, I know you are those folks, but what are, what is your best advice for yourself or others who are in your similar shoes? Well, we haven't

[00:42:24] Zack Katz: really talked about this, but I think that it's worth saying that there is a research and development tax credit available mm-hmm.

[00:42:31] For us companies. That you get an extra benefit on come tax season and you can write off, uh, I forget exactly what the amount is, but you can write on, off a significant amount of the cost of developing new products. Mm-hmm. But not if it's part of your existing product. Mm-hmm. So, uh, if, if you are in considering it, think about the RD tax credit and have a new product and, uh, then make sure that all the people that you work with are US based, and you can write that off as well.

[00:43:02] So there is a cost savings to, to, instead of integrating with an existing thing, make it its own thing and, and, uh, take advantage of the tax credit.

[00:43:11] Matt Cromwell: Yeah. Good one, Kim.

[00:43:14] Kim Coleman: Yeah, I, I mean, I would say that don't expect overnight success and, but continually like, reevaluate how valuable continuing to spend time.

[00:43:27] On that second product is we talked about, um, sunsetting a product in a previous episode. Go check that out. Mm-hmm. We talked about deciding whether or not you should launch something. Mm-hmm. Now we're talking about being in that kind of adolescent stage where you're like, Ugh, like, I don't want this to disappear, but I'm still struggling to see where it's going.

[00:43:46] Um, so yeah, I don't. Nurture your adolescent. It's the most awkward stage of raising a child. I'll tell you. Having had one, one and also of raising a product, so, mm-hmm. Maybe some of the same rules apply. To both. So ask your mom what to do,

[00:44:05] Matt Cromwell: mom. I'm raising an adolescent. What? Um, yeah, that's good stuff. Um, for me, I would say definitely, uh, prioritize according to, um. What you feel like the new product is, is worth, uh, to your business, to your bottom line. Um, and I don't mean it extremely literally. We previously talked a little bit about, uh, with Jason Coleman actually about finances and how you, uh, can, can, um, budget your different departments according to different, um, percentages of revenue.

[00:44:38] Um, and I was talking about. You know, you might have an investment year where you're investing more heavily in your company, uh, whereas other years you're gonna do a a lot leaner year. You can do that differently with your meat and potatoes. Uh, you're investing, you're, you're, you're keeping it lean while you're investing a lot more time in your new product.

[00:44:57] Um, you could think of it that way. Or if you're like, well, it's really only 5% of our total revenue right now. I'm only giving it 5% of my time. But either way, make kind of a choice about how you want to invest in the new product and then be consistent about that choice. Um, I think that just, um, would, uh, give you a lot more sense of certainty about what you're doing going forward.

[00:45:20] So. Cool. Thanks so much, gang. This was a great conversation as always. Um, uh, last more shout out to WP Minute, who's gonna get things out on all the, um, podcasting platforms for us. And we do have somebody coming up next week as well. So, um, Kim, what's going on next week?

[00:45:41] Kim Coleman: Absolutely. So our, for our 12th episode, uh, in on December 7th, we'll be hosting Brad Williams of web dev studios, and we're gonna talk about five for the future.

[00:45:52] Matt Cromwell: I'm excited for that. Brad is such a great character. So much fun. Um, Zach, so are you. Um, I often do the WordPress wiggle in your name. Um, and if

[00:46:05] Zack Katz: you

[00:46:05] Matt Cromwell: don't

[00:46:05] Zack Katz: know what that is, Google,

[00:46:07] Matt Cromwell: WordPress, wiggle everybody. Google, Google it,

[00:46:11] Kim Coleman: friending on Twitter.

[00:46:15] Matt Cromwell: Have a great week everybody. We'll see you next week. Thanks so much. Thanks for having me. Bye. Bye. Bye.